Shinobi

This fundy on another message board said this asinine stuff, when I asked why there are no records of a great flood in egyptian and chinese records.


"The flood has more accounts than any single event in history. And it is told all over the world, as we would expect. The flood is told by the Greeks, the hindus, the Chinese, the Mexicans, the Algonquins the Haawaiins. The summeian kings treat the flood as an historical reference point. In fact, the Summeritans confirm the long lives of the earlier people, before God shortened life spans.

here is an excellent quote from a scholar


there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations;in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America.

." Stephen D. Peet, "The Story of the Deluge," American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, , p. 203.

There are well over 500 flood accounts.



Here is a compare and contrast with the Babolonian account and the Bible

BABYLONIAN - Take the seed of all creatures aboard the ship

Gen. 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring.


BABYLONIAN = I boarded the ship and closed the door.

Gen. 7:1 - Come into the Ark
Gen. 7:16 The Lord shut him in.

BABYLONIAN = I sent out a dove . The dove went, then came back, no resting-place appeared for it, so it returned.

Gen. 8:8 He sent out a dove...But the dove found no resting-place . . . and she returned.


BABYLONIAN = Then I sent out a raven . .it was the waters receding, it ate, it flew about to and fro, it did not return.

Gen. 8:7 He sent out a raven, which kept going to and fro until the waters had dried up from the Earth.

BABYLONIAN = I made a libation on the peak of the mountain.


Gen. 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord (on the mountain) and offered burnt offerings.

Heres the African account

Africa
Southwest Tanzania

Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.

Heres another one

Chaldean
There was a man by the name of Xisuthrus. The god Chronos warned Xisuthrus of a coming flood and told him to build a boat. The boat was to be 5 stadia by 2 stadia. In this boat Xisuthrus was to put his family, friends and two of each animal (male and female). The flood came. When the waters started to recede he let some birds loose. They came back and he noticed they had mud on their feet. When he tried the third time the birds did not return. Assuming the water had dried up the people got out of the boat and offered sacrifices to the gods.


another one


United States
The Ojibwe natives who have lived in Minnesota USA since approximately 1400AD also have a creation and flood story that closely paralleles the Biblical account. "There came a time when the harmonious way of life did not continue. Men and women disrespected each other, families quarreled and soon villages began arguing back and forth. This saddened Gitchie Manido [the Creator] greatly, but he waited. Finally, when it seemed there was no hope left, Creator decided to purify Mother Earth through the use of water. The water came, flooding the Earth, catching all of creation off guard. All but a few of each living thing survived." Then it tells how Waynaboozhoo survived by floating on a vessel in the water with various animals.

Just to seal the deal, I'll directly quote the two sources you asked

You asked for the Chinese account as well


China
The Chinese classic called the Hihking tells about "the family of Fuhi," that was saved from a great flood. This ancient story tells that the entire land was flooded; the mountains and everything, however one family survived in a boat. The Chinese consider this man the father of their civilization. This record indicates that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters were the only people that escaped the great flood. It is claimed, that he and his family were the only people alive on earth, and repopulated the world."

I think these things are just stories and are not historical records.
Secondly, knowing what few scruples creationists have to lying, these stories could be misquoted, or interpolated in some way.

Just wondering if anyone on this board is familiar with the stories mentioned.

Doubting Didymus

Those are just the tip of the iceberg.

Talkorigins has a page of these as long as your arm.

I'm quite sure you could make a similar list for any number of recurrent mythological themes. The number of stories about lightning thrown by gods, for example, does not lead us to the conclusion that big bearded men sitting on clouds are playing javelin practice with us.

Edit: Well, it doesn't lead all of us to believe that....

Roller

From my experience with creationists, the things he wrote might be very distorted to fit his story. Hehe. It seems you creationist friend had copy/pasted this site.
Someone will give you advice how to handle flood stories but what I suggest is to go for the part I quoted. Bible version is almost verbatim from the Babylonian. Read this and then ask him where did the writer of Genesis got his inspiration. God? Mmmm... Perhaps Babylonians? Possible source of the Babylonian flood story: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_noah.htm
Note: this will not help your friend since he must insist that the flood was a global one.

Here's a short CV of Rev. Dr. Peet.

Shinobi

Hehe, standard practice to just copy verbatim other people eh?
By the way, he's not my friend. I think he's disturbed. The forum is a bodybuilding one and in the free discussion section, there is a heap of fundy religious nonsense. The moderaters of the site are all fundies. This guy is really whacked, he once posted a big long topic about demons and angels, he thinks they are real.

Maybe he consumes too much protein and doesn't get enough carbohydrates for his brain.

Thanks for the responses. I just posted a reply, I said that the stories he quoted are folk tales and not reliable historical records by historians. He then proceded to post some nonsense about chinese characters. It's doubtfull that what I said would mean anything to him. One of the foundations of his belief is that folk stories thousands of years old are accurate historical accounts.

faust

correlation does not indicate causality.

All those groups of people believed the world was flat. Therefore, flat worlds have worldwide floods. We're safe because we know the world is round.

Makes as much sense as his ideas.

Jack the Bodiless

There are two rather obvious reasons why Flood stories are so common.

One is that civilizations tend to grow around rivers, which tend to flood.

The other is that fossils of marine animals on dry land make it obvious, even to ancient peoples (who were just as smart as us) that much of what is now dry land was once underwater.

But quoting Babylonians, Sumerians, Chaldeans etc is a sign of desperation, considering the Middle-Eastern origin of the Bible. And if there was a flood, but there are still people and animals around, it doesn't take a literary genius to come up with the notion of a big boat with animals aboard.

How does this guy explain all the flood myths WITHOUT Arks? Loads of people survived by clinging to floating logs and so forth. So God failed to kill all except Noah's family, as he promised?

Jayjay

I was able to find these three in the talkorigins listing as well, in slightly different form. However, sources for all of them were Theodor Gaster's Myth, Legend, and Custom in the Old Testament or Sir James Frazer's Folk-Lore in the Old Testament. Judging by the names of the two books, it seems as if the authors might have had ulterior motives to twist the legends in question to fit a biblical interpretation. Does anyone know in any more detail how objective Frazer and Gaster really were?

(A quick browsing at talkorigins didn't show any sign of people quarreling or creator being angry with them in the Ojibway folklore, by the way.)

Anyone know the source of this one? Is this even remotely accurate?

contracycle

I've never come across that Chinese story in quite some readin on Chinese history and philosophy. Also does not not, umm, sound right for the time and place as it were. I doubt its authentic - but if it is, it will not have been widely popular.

The_Unknown_Banana

I don't know, I find this kind of stuff rather fascinating. I don't see why the bible couldn't be referring to some actual events that happened in the past. Is it really totally against science that a great flood might have occurred? What if we move the time frame back a little? (ie. End of the last ice age)

It's the same with the lightning... I could easily believe stories about lightning strikes are based on truth, just that their explanation for its origin was somewhat incorrect. (Though this is obviously of less significance than a great flood)

Jayjay

I'd love it if there had been some sort of majestic cataclysmic event in the past that's reflected all around the world! Too bad the evidence doesn't seem to point that way...