Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gooch's dad · 02-26-2003, 06:33 PM

A big issue for many of us ex-Christians is the idea of sending billions of innocent people to hell because they don't believe in Jesus. A 13th century Aztec, for example---he obviously never heard of Jesus or the Jewish God, and since Jesus said that nobody goes to the Father except through him, does that Aztec go straight to the hell of a god he's never even heard about?

Magus said inthis thread

Quote:

I agree in that those who have never heard the gospel won't be held accountable. God will judge them based on if they made any attempt to seek something above him because God says the truth is known. Just alot of them deny it or are decieved.

Odd, that seems to directly contradict what Paul wrote in Romans 10:13-18

Quote:

for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS !" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT ?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

Note what he says in verses 14 and 15--They won't believe in Jesus unless they've heard, and they won't hear without a preacher. The signs of nature aren't sufficient to show that Aztec about the Judeo-Christian God--Paul made it quite clear that it requires a preacher.

And Paul also says in verse 18, that the word has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. Paul thinks everybody on earth has heard about Jesus. But Paul only knew about the Greek/Roman world.

So, Magus55 and other fundamentalist Christians, how can you reconcile those verses with an Aztec NOT going to hell? And if he is destined for hell, how can you possibly worship such a monstrous god?

-Kelly

Vinnie · 02-26-2003, 06:58 PM

Paul is talking about Israelites, not the Aztecs.

Read on to read on to 11:1: "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. "

This is also shown in the text before this. There are other elements of poor exegesis here on your part as well. You are reading with a wooden literalism that is distorting the text.

Vinnie

Vinnie · 02-26-2003, 07:06 PM

Christians will commonly cite Romans 2:6-16

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

And v. 28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Paul the pluralist???

Psalm 62:12???
Surely you will reward each person
according to what he has done. "

Provers 24:12???
12 If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?

Vinnie

Gooch's dad · 02-26-2003, 09:12 PM

An excellent reply, Vinnie, and one that any Universalist would applaud. I'm curious how you reconcile this with John 14:6:

Quote:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Cheers,

-Kelly

Vinnie · 02-26-2003, 09:32 PM

Several responsese here:

Did Jesus say that? Name me a critical scholar who says yes

The "I am" sayings in GJohn have serious problems regarding their historicity. I'll post more later on this. For now it will suffice to say that they reflect the voice of the community regarding the risen and transforming Jesus.

I am not too much into "reconciling" biblical passages. Rather than force-fitting one text to fit the outlook of another I choose to let the passages stand on their own grounds. That way I can see what the author really has to say. Th sayings material in GJohn has significantl historical problems associated with it. This is not to say it is invaluable or false. Its not strict history but as the voice of the community, the "I am" and other such sayings are powerful verses. I believe each one of them is true in a sense but just that Jesus of Nazareth didn't actually say them.

Anyways, what do you think that passage means? That conscious faith in the work of Jesus on the cross is necessary for salvation?

Vinnie

Vinnie · 02-26-2003, 09:42 PM

Oh yeah, it is possible for a pluralist to affirm John 14:6.

Jesus can be the only way to heaven but that does not mean conscious faith in the historical work of Jesus is needed for salvation or that the possibility of salvation is limited to this life. See my wider-hope theory:

http://www.acfaith.com/widerhope.html

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-26-2003, 06:58 PM	#2
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Paul is talking about Israelites, not the Aztecs. Read on to read on to 11:1: "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. " This is also shown in the text before this. There are other elements of poor exegesis here on your part as well. You are reading with a wooden literalism that is distorting the text. Vinnie

02-26-2003, 07:06 PM	#3
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Christians will commonly cite Romans 2:6-16 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. And v. 28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. Paul the pluralist??? Psalm 62:12??? Surely you will reward each person according to what he has done. " Provers 24:12??? 12 If you say, "But we knew nothing about this," does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Vinnie

02-26-2003, 09:32 PM	#5
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Several responsese here: Did Jesus say that? Name me a critical scholar who says yes The "I am" sayings in GJohn have serious problems regarding their historicity. I'll post more later on this. For now it will suffice to say that they reflect the voice of the community regarding the risen and transforming Jesus. I am not too much into "reconciling" biblical passages. Rather than force-fitting one text to fit the outlook of another I choose to let the passages stand on their own grounds. That way I can see what the author really has to say. Th sayings material in GJohn has significantl historical problems associated with it. This is not to say it is invaluable or false. Its not strict history but as the voice of the community, the "I am" and other such sayings are powerful verses. I believe each one of them is true in a sense but just that Jesus of Nazareth didn't actually say them. Anyways, what do you think that passage means? That conscious faith in the work of Jesus on the cross is necessary for salvation? Vinnie

02-26-2003, 09:42 PM	#6
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Oh yeah, it is possible for a pluralist to affirm John 14:6. Jesus can be the only way to heaven but that does not mean conscious faith in the historical work of Jesus is needed for salvation or that the possibility of salvation is limited to this life. See my wider-hope theory: http://www.acfaith.com/widerhope.html

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.