Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NZAmoeba · 07-30-2003, 09:16 PM

now, humans originated in Africa... they then spread to north africa, the middle east, europe and asia.

But how did they eventually get to south america? was it from NE asia to alaska, and then progressively southward? or was it from SE asia, to the pacific islands, and then south america?

Let alone this being a bloody long journey.... but the remains of the Incan empire seem to suggest they had been there for a long while a very long time ago.... its a thought that suddenly occoured to me and I'm hopeing someone else has researched this for me to save me from the effort

thank ye

ps. I'm fairly sure this belongs in E/C as it has to do with the spread of the human species...

Godless Dave · 07-30-2003, 11:12 PM

The commonly accepted hypothesis is South Americans got there from North America after migrating there from Siberia no earlier than approximately 20,000 years ago. I don't know exactly how far back the evidence for Incan and other Mesoamerican and South American civilations go but I know it's a hell of a lot less than 20,000 years. But the hypothesis I mentioned is not universally accepted. Some think people could have crossed the Pacific Ocean from Polynesia to South America.

demoninho · 07-30-2003, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Let alone this being a bloody long journey.... but the remains of the Incan empire seem to suggest they had been there for a long while a very long time ago.... its a thought that suddenly occoured to me and I'm hopeing someone else has researched this for me to save me from the effort

I don't know the exact year but actually the inca empire was founded somewhere in the 14th century just a short while before the spanish came.

Claudia · 07-31-2003, 05:08 AM

I am not sure, but i think that oldest south American Archeological sites predate polynesia occupation by thousands of years.

Quote:

Domestic tools dated at 14,500 years have been found in Chile - but with no associated human remains.

from this site: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2538323.stm

markfiend · 07-31-2003, 05:37 AM

From Claudia:

Quote:

i think that oldest south American Archeological sites predate polynesia occupation by thousands of years

From the link posted by Claudia:

Quote:

This suggests that humans dispersed within Mexico in two distinct waves, and that a race of long and narrow-headed humans may have lived in North America prior to the American Indians.

Traditionally, American Indians were thought to have been the first to arrive on the continent, crossing from Asia on a land bridge.

Dr Gonzalez told BBC News Online: "We believe that the older race may have come from what is now Japan, via the Pacific islands and perhaps the California coast. "

Oolon Colluphid · 07-31-2003, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NZAmoeba

Let alone this being a bloody long journey.... but the remains of the Incan empire seem to suggest they had been there for a long while a very long time ago....

Well, get the backs of your envelopes out, cos here�s a calculation. From the Bering Strait to Chile is, what, about 8,000 miles at a guess?

Suppose that humans first reached the Americas 20,000 years ago (a low estimate, apparently). And they were in Chile by 14,500 years ago. That�s 5,500 years. Well if these travellers constantly and steadily moved onward, they need only move at a rate of a mile-and-a-half a year. That�s a half-hour stroll for the rest of us.

So I don�t see this as implausible in the slightest.

Cheers, Oolon

07-31-2003, 07:38 AM

I saw a TV programme in the past few months that suggested that the first humans in South America might have been cro-magnons coming across at a time when the Atlantic had a lot of ice floes in it, so that they wouldn't have had to do any big tracts of open sea. It all seemed a bit hypothetical, but there were apparently some anomalous archaeological findings that could have supported it and there was some hope of some sort of genetic confirmation.

I'm sorry I don't remember the details. I happened on this programme while idly channel hopping.

Here is a link to a more orthodox article on the much-argued-over site of Monte Verde. Here's another one. If you do a google on Clovis or Monte Verde, I'm sure you'll find a lot more. I don't think the TV programme I saw was about Monte Verde. I think they thought they had evidence somewhere else.

Claudia · 07-31-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Dr Gonzalez told BBC News Online: "We believe that the older race may have come from what is now Japan, via the Pacific islands and perhaps the California coast. "

They believe it, but I would like to know on which evidences they base this hypothesis. Where are the marks of such moving in Pacific Islands? I think that settlement in Polynesia date from 2000 BC in Melanesia to 1000 AD in New Zealand. (approximately)

ps418 · 08-01-2003, 07:40 AM

IIRC, it has been suggested that some early south american paleoindians migrated from Spain, based on some similarities of tools. That's not at all widely accepted though. Of course it is possible that there were earlier migrations to the americas, which died out or did not contribute to the existing south american populations.

As far as existing "native" south americans go, all the evidence I've seen points to them, along with native north americans, migrating to the americas from northeast asia, either on the land bridge, or via coastal migration. In fact, there's a paper in the latest American Journal of Human Genetics further supporting this view:

Quote:

To scrutinize the male ancestry of extant Native American populations, we examined eight biallelic and six microsatellite polymorphisms from the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome, in 438 individuals from 24 Native American populations (1 Na Den� and 23 South Amerinds) and in 404 Mongolians. One of the biallelic markers typed is a recently identified mutation (M242) characterizing a novel founder Native American haplogroup. The distribution, relatedness, and diversity of Y lineages in Native Americans indicate a differentiated male ancestry for populations from North and South America, strongly supporting a diverse demographic history for populations from these areas. These data are consistent with the occurrence of two major male migrations from southern/central Siberia to the Americas (with the second migration being restricted to North America) and a shared ancestry in central Asia for some of the initial migrants to Europe and the Americas. The microsatellite diversity and distribution of a Y lineage specific to South America (Q-M19) indicates that certain Amerind populations have been isolated since the initial colonization of the region, suggesting an early onset for tribalization of Native Americans. Age estimates based on Y-chromosome microsatellite diversity place the initial settlement of the American continent at 14,000 years ago, in relative agreement with the age of well-established archaeological evidence.

Bortolini et al, 2003. Y-Chromosome Evidence for Differing Ancient Demographic Histories in the Americas. Am J Human Gen epub July 28, to appear in September issue.

Patrick

07-30-2003, 09:16 PM	#1
NZAmoeba Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 478	South Americans... where from? now, humans originated in Africa... they then spread to north africa, the middle east, europe and asia. But how did they eventually get to south america? was it from NE asia to alaska, and then progressively southward? or was it from SE asia, to the pacific islands, and then south america? Let alone this being a bloody long journey.... but the remains of the Incan empire seem to suggest they had been there for a long while a very long time ago.... its a thought that suddenly occoured to me and I'm hopeing someone else has researched this for me to save me from the effort thank ye ps. I'm fairly sure this belongs in E/C as it has to do with the spread of the human species...

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07-30-2003, 11:12 PM	#2
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	The commonly accepted hypothesis is South Americans got there from North America after migrating there from Siberia no earlier than approximately 20,000 years ago. I don't know exactly how far back the evidence for Incan and other Mesoamerican and South American civilations go but I know it's a hell of a lot less than 20,000 years. But the hypothesis I mentioned is not universally accepted. Some think people could have crossed the Pacific Ocean from Polynesia to South America.

07-31-2003, 07:38 AM	#7
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	I saw a TV programme in the past few months that suggested that the first humans in South America might have been cro-magnons coming across at a time when the Atlantic had a lot of ice floes in it, so that they wouldn't have had to do any big tracts of open sea. It all seemed a bit hypothetical, but there were apparently some anomalous archaeological findings that could have supported it and there was some hope of some sort of genetic confirmation. I'm sorry I don't remember the details. I happened on this programme while idly channel hopping. Here is a link to a more orthodox article on the much-argued-over site of Monte Verde. Here's another one. If you do a google on Clovis or Monte Verde, I'm sure you'll find a lot more. I don't think the TV programme I saw was about Monte Verde. I think they thought they had evidence somewhere else.

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