Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ExMormon-Jason · 04-10-2003, 04:25 PM

Okay, so Ive heard of this description, but I was wondering if anyone knew whether or not this was bogus.

"There has appeared in Palestine a man whose power is extraordinary. He holds the title Great Prophet: his disciples call him the Son of God. He raises the dead and heals all sorts of disease. He is a tall, well-proportioned man, and there is an air of serenity in his countenance which at once attracts the love and reverence of those who see him. His hair is the color of new wine from the roots to the ears, and thence down to the shoulders it is curled and falls down to the lowest part of them. Upon the forehead, it parts in two in the manner of Nazarenes. His forehead is flat and fair, his face without blemish or defect, and adorned with a grace-filled expression, his nose and mouth well-proportioned, with thick beard the colour of his hair, and his eyes are grey and extremely lively. In his reproofs he is terrible, but in his exhortations and instructions, amiable and courteous. There is something wonderfully charming in his face, with a mixture of gravity. He is never seen to laugh, but has been observed to weep. He is very straight in stature, with large spreading hands and arms. He talks little, but with a quality of the handsomest man in the world. --Publius Lentulus, to his Emperor, Tiberius (A.D. 14-37)"

Anyone?

Jason

Toto · 04-10-2003, 04:51 PM

Read about it here

Quote:

Goodspeed lists the governors of Palestine and points out that there never was any Lentulus. According to him there is a Publius Cornelius Lentulus (both a father and a son) mentioned by Cicero who lived in the first century before Christ. He also says that at least one Lucius Lentulus held the office of consul in Rome. (He does not mention the date, but I am assuming that it must have occurred before Julius Ceaser's time which would make it well before the time of Christ but I am no expert and may be wrong.)

I'll quote his evaluation of the description from p.91 of his book:

"The 'Letter of Lentulus' is evidently a fiction, designed to give currency to the description contained in the printers' manuals about the personal appearance of Jesus. The varying accounts of its provenance are simply devices to explain its survival from antiquity until today. It is probably as old as the thirteenth century; but it was unknown to Christian antiquity, and has no claims to serious attention as throwing any light upon the personal appearance of Jesus."

quoting Modern Apocrypha, Famous "Biblical" Hoaxes by Edgar J. Goodspeed

Peter Kirby · 04-10-2003, 06:26 PM

Per Beskow writes: "The Letter of Lentulus is a fairly late apocryphon, probably from the thirteenth century. It is not mentioned by Hennecke and Shneemelcher, but [Montague R.] James gives a common form of the text, p. 477 f. The various versions have been edited and commented by von Dobschutz, pp. 293-330. Goodspeed has a short chapter on the letter in his Modern Apocrypha, pp. 88-91. The Letter of Lentulus describes Jesus in a way well known to us from Christian art; his hair is brown with long, curling locks and is parted in the middle of the head, and his beard is a little forked. This writing purports to have been made by a Roman named Lentulus, who is said to have served in Judea in the time of Jesus. He cannot be identified as an historical person." (Strange Tales about Jesus, pp. 111-112)

best,
Peter Kirby

Clara Listensprechen · 04-10-2003, 11:04 PM

Ya, when somebody gets famous (maybe not rich and...)/infamous, you get all kinds of mercenaries selling baseball cards with his alleged signature on 'em. That's certainly what happened in rampant style during the Crusades, Europeans bringing back all kinds of nicknacks sold at unbelieveable prices just because the story was that something was the splinter off the original cross or some such bull. Even Paul quotes nonexistant "scripture" just to make a sale of religion to his audience. (Acts 20:35 is just one of a number of "agrapha", the polite term for one scripture quoting scripture not findable elsewhere as scripture).

Selling snakeoil is the second oldest profession.

Appius · 04-10-2003, 11:04 PM

It also contradicts a phrophesy.

As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isaiah 52:14

Peter Kirby · 04-10-2003, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Appius
As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isaiah 52:14

Some took this seriously.

Origen, Contra Celsus, Book 6, Chap. 75

Quote:

To the preceding remarks he adds the following: "Since a divine Spirit inhabited the body (of Jesus), it must certainly have been different From that of other beings, in respect of grandeur, or beauty, or strength, or voice, or impressiveness, or persuasiveness. For it is impossible that He, to whom was imparted some divine quality beyond other beings, should not differ from others; whereas this person did not differ in any respect from another, but was, as they report, little, and ill-favoured, and ignoble." [KIRBY: or, "as they say, small and ugly and undistinguished"] Now it is evident by these words, that when Celsus wishes to bring a charge against Jesus, he adduces the sacred writings, as one who believed them to be writings apparently fitted to afford a handle for a charge against Him; but wherever, in the same writings, statements would appear to be made opposed to those charges which are adduced, he pretends not even to know them! There are, indeed, admitted to be recorded some statements respecting the body of Jesus having been "ill-favoured;" not, however, "ignoble," as has been stated, nor is there any certain evidence that he was "little." The language of Isaiah runs as follows, who prophesied regarding Him that He would come and visit the multitude, not in comeliness of form, nor in any surpassing beauty: "Lord, who hath believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? He made announcement before Him, as a child, as a root in a thirsty ground. He has no form nor glory, and we beheld Him, and He had no form nor beauty; but His form was without honour, and inferior to that of the sons of men." These passages, then, Celsus listened to, because he thought they were of use to him in bringing a charge against Jesus; but he paid no attention to the words of the 45th Psalm, and why it is then said, "Gird Thy sword upon Thy thigh, O most mighty, with Thy comeliness and beauty; and continue, and prosper, and reign."

Tertullian, On the Flesh of Christ, Chap. 9

Quote:

His body did not reach even to human beauty, to say nothing of heavenly glory. Had the prophets given us no information whatever concerning His ignoble appearance, His very sufferings and the very contumely He endured bespeak it all. The sufferings attested His human flesh, the contumely proved its abject condition. Would any man have dared to touch even with his little finger, the body of Christ, if it had been of an unusual nature;, or to smear His face with spitting, if it had not invited it (by its abjectness)? Why talk of a heavenly flesh, when you have no grounds to offer us for your celestial theory? Why deny it to be earthy, when you have the best of reasons for knowing it to be earthy? He hungered under the devil's temptation; He thirsted with the woman of Samaria; He wept over Lazarus; He trembles at death (for "the flesh," as He says, "is weak "); at last, He pours out His blood. These, I suppose, are celestial marks? But how, I ask, could He have incurred contempt and suffering in the way I have described, if there had beamed forth in that flesh of His aught of celestial excellence? From this, therefore, we have a convincing proof that in it there was nothing of heaven, because it must be capable of contempt and suffering.

best,
Peter Kirby

judge · 04-11-2003, 12:08 AM

Hi Clara!

you said.....

Ya, when somebody gets famous (maybe not rich and...)/infamous, you get all kinds of mercenaries selling baseball cards with his alleged signature on 'em. That's certainly what happened in rampant style during the Crusades, Europeans bringing back all kinds of nicknacks sold at unbelieveable prices just because the story was that something was the splinter off the original cross or some such bull. Even Paul quotes nonexistant "scripture" just to make a sale of religion to his audience. (Acts 20:35 is just one of a number of "agrapha", the polite term for one scripture quoting scripture not findable elsewhere as scripture).

Selling snakeoil is the second oldest profession.

Judge:
There seems no reason to say that Paul is quoting scripture. Maybe he was just quoting Jesus.
From the gospels we can see that our Lord often taught the same thing over and over. Perhpas this was a common saying of His. After all Paul lived in His lifetime

all the best

Clara Listensprechen · 04-11-2003, 11:20 PM

Judge, you'd have a point if Paul actually hung around Jesus. That's arguable even among scholars of larger standing than you or me.

As it happens, the Gospels are alleged to have been quoting Jesus, too, and in fact can more or less crossreference each other in that regard. Paul doesn't cross.

judge · 04-12-2003, 02:00 PM

Hi again Clara!

Clara:
Judge, you'd have a point if Paul actually hung around Jesus. That's arguable even among scholars of larger standing than you or me.

Judge:
Not at all...read in the gospels just how widespread were the words and deeds of Jesus. Just about all knew of Him.
Additionally many of his sayings he taught over and over. In fact many of his "sayings" contain rhymes or wordplays or puns in Aramaic (perhaps to make them easier to remember)
It would be interesting to see if there are any literary devices in this saying which made it easier to remember.
I might check it out

Peace

Clara Listensprechen · 04-12-2003, 03:52 PM

Using the Gospels of NT to prove the NT is recursive. Wrong answer.

In the case of Paul quoting words attributed to Jesus but NOT found in the NT anywhere EVEN in the Gospels, you're striking out twice.

GAME OVER--Thank you for playing--try again.

04-10-2003, 04:25 PM	#1
ExMormon-Jason Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Utah Posts: 13	Publius Lentulus description of Jesus? Okay, so Ive heard of this description, but I was wondering if anyone knew whether or not this was bogus. "There has appeared in Palestine a man whose power is extraordinary. He holds the title Great Prophet: his disciples call him the Son of God. He raises the dead and heals all sorts of disease. He is a tall, well-proportioned man, and there is an air of serenity in his countenance which at once attracts the love and reverence of those who see him. His hair is the color of new wine from the roots to the ears, and thence down to the shoulders it is curled and falls down to the lowest part of them. Upon the forehead, it parts in two in the manner of Nazarenes. His forehead is flat and fair, his face without blemish or defect, and adorned with a grace-filled expression, his nose and mouth well-proportioned, with thick beard the colour of his hair, and his eyes are grey and extremely lively. In his reproofs he is terrible, but in his exhortations and instructions, amiable and courteous. There is something wonderfully charming in his face, with a mixture of gravity. He is never seen to laugh, but has been observed to weep. He is very straight in stature, with large spreading hands and arms. He talks little, but with a quality of the handsomest man in the world. --Publius Lentulus, to his Emperor, Tiberius (A.D. 14-37)" Anyone? Jason

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-10-2003, 06:26 PM	#3
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Per Beskow writes: "The Letter of Lentulus is a fairly late apocryphon, probably from the thirteenth century. It is not mentioned by Hennecke and Shneemelcher, but [Montague R.] James gives a common form of the text, p. 477 f. The various versions have been edited and commented by von Dobschutz, pp. 293-330. Goodspeed has a short chapter on the letter in his Modern Apocrypha, pp. 88-91. The Letter of Lentulus describes Jesus in a way well known to us from Christian art; his hair is brown with long, curling locks and is parted in the middle of the head, and his beard is a little forked. This writing purports to have been made by a Roman named Lentulus, who is said to have served in Judea in the time of Jesus. He cannot be identified as an historical person." (Strange Tales about Jesus, pp. 111-112) best, Peter Kirby

04-10-2003, 11:04 PM	#4
Clara Listensprechen Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Enid OK Posts: 91	Ya, when somebody gets famous (maybe not rich and...)/infamous, you get all kinds of mercenaries selling baseball cards with his alleged signature on 'em. That's certainly what happened in rampant style during the Crusades, Europeans bringing back all kinds of nicknacks sold at unbelieveable prices just because the story was that something was the splinter off the original cross or some such bull. Even Paul quotes nonexistant "scripture" just to make a sale of religion to his audience. (Acts 20:35 is just one of a number of "agrapha", the polite term for one scripture quoting scripture not findable elsewhere as scripture). Selling snakeoil is the second oldest profession.

04-10-2003, 11:04 PM	#5
Appius Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: MN, USA Posts: 25	It also contradicts a phrophesy. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: Isaiah 52:14

04-11-2003, 12:08 AM	#7
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	Hi Clara! you said..... Ya, when somebody gets famous (maybe not rich and...)/infamous, you get all kinds of mercenaries selling baseball cards with his alleged signature on 'em. That's certainly what happened in rampant style during the Crusades, Europeans bringing back all kinds of nicknacks sold at unbelieveable prices just because the story was that something was the splinter off the original cross or some such bull. Even Paul quotes nonexistant "scripture" just to make a sale of religion to his audience. (Acts 20:35 is just one of a number of "agrapha", the polite term for one scripture quoting scripture not findable elsewhere as scripture). Selling snakeoil is the second oldest profession. Judge: There seems no reason to say that Paul is quoting scripture. Maybe he was just quoting Jesus. From the gospels we can see that our Lord often taught the same thing over and over. Perhpas this was a common saying of His. After all Paul lived in His lifetime all the best

04-11-2003, 11:20 PM	#8
Clara Listensprechen Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Enid OK Posts: 91	Judge, you'd have a point if Paul actually hung around Jesus. That's arguable even among scholars of larger standing than you or me. As it happens, the Gospels are alleged to have been quoting Jesus, too, and in fact can more or less crossreference each other in that regard. Paul doesn't cross.

04-12-2003, 02:00 PM	#9
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	Hi again Clara! Clara: Judge, you'd have a point if Paul actually hung around Jesus. That's arguable even among scholars of larger standing than you or me. Judge: Not at all...read in the gospels just how widespread were the words and deeds of Jesus. Just about all knew of Him. Additionally many of his sayings he taught over and over. In fact many of his "sayings" contain rhymes or wordplays or puns in Aramaic (perhaps to make them easier to remember) It would be interesting to see if there are any literary devices in this saying which made it easier to remember. I might check it out Peace

04-12-2003, 03:52 PM	#10
Clara Listensprechen Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Enid OK Posts: 91	Using the Gospels of NT to prove the NT is recursive. Wrong answer. In the case of Paul quoting words attributed to Jesus but NOT found in the NT anywhere EVEN in the Gospels, you're striking out twice. GAME OVER--Thank you for playing--try again.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.