HelenM

I expect that all ex-Christians who have changed their religious beliefs, have retained any 'context' and/or anything they learned while a Christian, that was beneficial/meaningful to them.

I think most of them would say that not everything Christians teach is wrong/worthless/evil; however they could not accept the 'package deal', the 'totality' of what they were expected to believe and accept.

And it was not acceptable to pick and choose so the only option that made sense, given that, was to leave.

I may be wrong but that's what seems likely to me.

Whether I'd agree with what you said all depends on what you mean by 'context'.

Jesus told the story of the man and two sons; one son said he wouldn't do what his father wanted, but then he did anyway; the other son said he'd do what his father wanted and didn't. Jesus praised the first son and condemned the second. Then he applied this saying that the religious leaders of his day were like the second son and those the religious leaders considered 'sinners' were like the first son. He said the 'sinners' would enter heaven first...strong words.

I wonder who he'd liken to each son in our day...

Anyway here's the passage:

Matt 21:28 "What do you think? A man had two sons; he went to the first and said, "Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' 29 He answered, "I will not'; but later he changed his mind and went. 30 The father went to the second and said the same; and he answered, "I go, sir'; but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

I know that one could regard at least some of what is in the NT gospels as anti-Jewish leader rhetoric - written by people who disliked the way those leaders represented belief in God (and/or the leaders themselves) intensely, I suppose, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't also what Jesus said.

love
Helen

Theli

David...

The same place where every other person find it.
I seriously doubt that all christians are so engulfed in the christian religion and it's dogma that they become "drones of the church". Marching in a straight line, incapable of individual thinking.
They find "meaning" in other things, and so does atheists.

BTW, why do you refer to only atheists?
I wasn't aware that all theism guarentees purpose and meaning to people's lives.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

David Mathews

Hello Helen,

David: I suspect that you are wrong, Helen. What do you know about atheism? What do you know about the rejection of Christianity?

David: Your interpretation of the above passage is ... shall I say ... somewhat unusual, Helen.

David: What are you talking about here, Helen? You are making some obscure reference to some controversy, I am certain. Could you speak less vaguely?

Love,

David Mathews

HelenM

A lot, from reading here for over a year. There are a lot of ex-Christians here.

I've had e-mail conversations with some ex-Christians too.

And I've talked to one in real life. Only one because I've only met one in a context to do that so far. What that person said was entirely consistent with what I've learned here so I do not set aside what I've learned here as some sort of distortion of what is true of people I meet face to face.

Oh, plus I'm married to an atheist (for almost 15 years now) so I get an upclose look at atheism. Although he's not an ex-Christian in the sense of ever having a deep personal commitment to Jesus Christ, like some people here once had, as best I can tell.

love
Helen

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

davidm

Hello, David Mathews, you've pretty much confirmed the content of my last post. You have The Belief, and it is impregnable. For you, no empirical evidence is necessary to demonstrate God. Nor, it appears, is consistency of belief necessary. Your belief has no "handles," and is "unconfined by conscious choice," you say, whatever all of that may mean.

I say Christianity, if true, ought to make some predictions, other than the unconfirmable predictions of what will happen to us after we die. Evidently, you disagree. Yet Christianity does make predictions. Didn't Christ tell his followers that he would return in their lifetimes to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth? He didn't do so; therefore, Christianity is disconfirmed Christianity also predicts a God that has a certain combination of qualities: Omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipotence, etc. As has been pointed out by many different people, both on this site and elsewhere, these traits are not compatible with the nature of the world that we observe Again, Christianity is disconfirmed.

You missed my point, I think, about contacting 50 alien civilizations. It was purely a thought experiment. I don't expect that we'll be able to contact 50 alien worlds, either; I don't even expect that there are 50 alien civilizations similar to ours in the entire universe. My point was: If the Christian God created the universe, he must have created all life forms in it. Wouldn't he want to save aliens as much as humans? Therefore there ought to be at least one Christian salvation story for each world inhabited by intelligent beings. If not, why not?

The fact that there are many cultures on earth that do not embrace Christianity ought to trouble you. Why has God's message failed to penetrate the hearts of most people on earth? That's not the result you'd expect from a perfect God. It's precisely what you'd expect of a myth concocted by fallible humans.

MOJO-JOJO

hello david.

i thought i should make you aware that the dave mathews homepage links which you have provided to users throughout this thread are not functioning properly. thank you david.

hal
~~~~~~~~~


Quote:
"I worry that, especially as the millennium edges nearer, pseudo-science and superstition will seem
year by year more tempting, the siren song of unreason more sonorous and attractive . Where
have we heard it before? Whenever our ethnic or national prejudices are aroused, in times of
scarcity, during the challenges to national self-esteem or nerve, when we agonize about our
diminished cosmic place and purpose, or when fanaticism is bubbling up around us [as is the case in the Church of Christ] - then, habits
of thought familiar from ages past reach for the controls. The candle flame gutters, its little pool of light trembles, darkness gathers. The Demons begin to stir.

~~Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


(ie; you are obsessed and blinded by supersticious notions that do not exist anywhere but in your imagination and your daily rituals)

David Mathews

Hello Helen,

Do you ever talk to atheists about the gospel?

Love,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello davidm,

David: Yes, I disagree.

David: I believe you are mistaken on both counts.

David: This is a matter of speculation. Until there is data about the religions of alien civilizations, I will not make any decision regarding their implications relative to Christianity.

David: Christianity has not always existed. Has it? There were religions long before Christianity, yes or no?

Why then should it trouble me that there is this great diversity of religions on the Earth?

Love,

David Mathews

Keith Russell

David:

I want to focus on one thought you expressed in one of the above posts.

you said:
The struggle for truth is more important than finding the truth ... because God has withheld the Truth from us and therefore humans can never gain it no matter how much effort humans expend in the effort.


If God has withheld the truth from us, and humans can never gain the truth, how do you--how can you possibly--know that this is true?

Keith.

davidm

Hi David Mathews,

I wrote:
Yet Christianity does make predictions. Didn't Christ tell his followers that he would return in their lifetimes to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth? He didn't do so; therefore, Christianity is disconfirmed Christianity also predicts a God that has a certain combination of qualities: Omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipotence, etc. As has been pointed out by many different people, both on this site and elsewhere, these traits are not compatible with the nature of the world that we observe Again, Christianity is disconfirmed.

You replied:
I believe you are mistaken on both counts.

My reply:
Would you care to demonstrate how I am mistaken? Simply asserting that someone is mistaken is not an argument.

I wrote:
The fact that there are many cultures on earth that do not embrace Christianity ought to trouble you. Why has God's message failed to penetrate the hearts of most people on earth? That's not the result you'd expect from a perfect God. It's precisely what you'd expect of a myth concocted by fallible humans.

You replied:
David: Christianity has not always existed. Has it? There were religions long before Christianity, yes or no?
Why then should it trouble me that there is this great diversity of religions on the Earth?

My reply:
Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. If it is the inerrant word of a perfect God, why is it rejected or ignored by a majority of people on earth, after all this time? Are you saying that given enough time, the whole world will convert? But no, the diversity of religions shouldn't trouble you, anymore than your Christianity troubles me.