seebs

Right. For instance, if some random yahoo offs himself, it's perfectly reasonable to go into rants about the stupidity of suicide, but if a dearly beloved member of the II community commits suicide, it is better to speak respectfully.

It's called courtesy. It is, I admit, fully independant from logic; but then, "ridicule" is not part of logic.

beyelzu

christianity is a crutch that weak people often need. thats what i feel about any atheist who converts to any theistic religion. i am only twenty five years old, but my father died when i was about 16, and at the time i was still agnostic, i wanted very much to embrace some sortof god, but i didnt. and i am a better person for it. only in a truly godless society can all men acheive there best. the biggest flaw in christianity is that it often teaches that only through god are acheivements possible.

seebs, how would you feel if a christian friend of yours went out and joined some sort of david khoresh led cult.

thats how i feel about atheists who become christian. and i have only ever met a couple of them. because once a person realizes that santa doesnt exist anymore, often do to logical contradictions that arise concerning present delivery to all parts of the world, they rarely go back to believing in santa.

also seebs, its not about someone who agrees with me changing their mind. its actually about someone who knows that their is no proof of god changing their mind. if they found proof where is it. in fact show me god.

also i agree with openeyes, how someone could go from being a reasonable atheist (particularly if they are a metaphysical naturalist or strong atheist) to believing in the catholic church with all of its divine mystery mumbo jumbo is quite confusing. i would be more understanding of an atheist who becomes a deist. perhaps because of issues with evolution.

however, i do disagree with bashing your own grandmother, assuming you loved and respected her in life. now if my mother died, i might make fun of her as i do not currently love or respect her.

seebs

Hmm. I don't know; I don't think I was weak, or looking for a crutch. I became convinced, that's all.

It would seem weird, but I guess, I don't see much grounds for throwing stones about beliefs.

Sure, but you don't meet a lot of credible sources who believe in Santa for reasons other than "mom told me that..."

I don't require *proof* to change my mind, just evidence. The evidence is purely experiential; I can't show it. (Thus, since I'm honest, I don't go around telling people it's "obvious"; obviously, it's not.)

The Catholics, despite all the "mysticism", are in many ways one of the more calm and rational denominations. They don't reject evolution (as a church; some members do).

That's sad. Advice from personal experience: There are few prices too high for reconciliation with family.

beyelzu

i have met several liberal catholics who are very reasonable. and in that aspect, i guess it might make more sense than say southern baptist.

but you still have the whole body of christ thing and the seeing the virgin mary. and saints who have to perform 3 miracles.

i dont not love or respect my mother because she was mean or strict or anything. i just dont respect her at all. she uses drugs and is an alcoholic and was never particularly motherly.

i am quite close to my brother however. and most of my friends make up a sort of family by choice.

seebs, what if someone you knew became one of the followers of benny hinn or one of the protestant sects that speaks in tongues and handles poisonous snakes, you wouldnt think that person was being foolish?

seebs

So? It's not as if there's a lot of evidence *against* these things; if you're willing to accept God, you can accept a few saints, too.

I might, but I try to remember that I look foolish to an awful lot of people, and reserve judgement; that person may have had experiences I don't which changed his expectations.

Arrowman

OK, this is getting out of hand. atheist_in_foxhole started this thread with a story about some stuff he found in his grandfather's papers, and this has spawned a disussion on "weird things Catholics believe". atheist_in_foxhole's comment wasHis only other comments on his grandparents have been complimentary and/or expressing mystification at how they could believe certain things. At no stage has he been disrespectful to either of his grandparents as people. Then Gemma said I don't see anything in a-i-f's posts which indicate he is 'exploiting his grandmother's beliefs for the sake of humour'. It is only your lack of objectivity and sens of humour about your faith which sees it that way.Or he could have done as hundreds before have done - start a thread on a general subject, with a story of personal experience. Go back and read the thread. At no stage has a-i-f 'bashed his own grandmother' - you have been misled by the subsequent discussion. (I had to go back and re-read myself to remind myself how off-target this discussion has become.) You are implying hypocrisy, but there is a difference here so obvious that it pains me to have to point it out:
a-i-f is talking in quite moderate terms about the beliefs of a person whom only he knows, who died some years ago. This is not the same as butting in to a discussion between members of a community who are grieving over the recent loss of someone they knew (online, and in some cases personally) with insensitive comments about suicide.
Grey areas and fine lines, maybe - and we all need to exercise common sense, judgement and courtesy when dealing with these things. But
1. a-i-f has not done that of which he has been accused, and
2. I still believe there is "special pleading" going on here because the beliefs in question are Christian/religious.
a-i-f's grandfather and grandmother were special people whom he loved and respected. They, and member of their family, believed some things which a-i-f thinks are silly. He has said so. So what.
Now for my story
My grandfather was a lovely man, although quite old-fashioned and conservative. He was a loved patriarch of our family. He was also a Freemason. One Christmas Day, when I was about 22, my (very red-headed) girlfriend visited our family. After she left, my grandfather said "Bernadette - that's a Catholic name, isn't it?" and I thought to myself "Yes, and I might marry her just to spite you, you old bigot." I loved my grandfather. But he wasn't perfect and I would never defend (indeed I would ridicule publicly) his anti-Catholic bigotry.

Oh, and I have kept the ruby ring he used to wear to Lodge meetings. It is valued at nearly 2 grand, after all

seebs

I was just talking in the general case, not about the specifics; I think it's reasonable to ask people to be respectful of the recently deceased. I wasn't arguing about a_i_f's specific decisions, just about some of the generalizations people were making.

Godless Dave

If MadMordigan could read that he would be laughing his ass off.

Seebs, I salute you.

***

Gemma, I read the piece you suggested. You read my reactions above. Now all you can say is I can never understand because I'm an atheist. I think you can do better than that. Can you respond to two or three of the observations I made? Or can you describe me in your own words what you think cloistered orders do for humanity?

Please don't think I'm picking on your faith in particular. I'm asking you about religious orders because he seem to have read a lot about them. There are inumerable religious practices that I don't understand.

Proxima Centauri

Roman Catholics are slaves to illusions. For 2,000 years your Church has brainwashed its members into accepting these illlusions.
I feel compassion for Roman Catholic Monks and Nuns who spend useless, frustrated lives comtemplating illusions.

Proxima Centauri

I made a parallel which in your opinion was juvenile, misguided and ignorant. When you say that it implies that you think me juvenile, misguided and ignorant. I have not made false accusations.
Well, according to Arrowman yoou made false accusations against Atheist in Foxhole. You are allowed to make false accusations, we are not.

You say you study the psychology of atheism. Do you try to study us as we are? Do you simply comtemplate your fantasies about morally inferior atheists and enjoy an undeserved sense of superiority?