caravelair

from time to time i end up in a debate over the whole noah's ark / flood story. of course it's absolutely impossible, but convincing people of that often seems impossible too.

i have one argument which i feel is quite good, but i know that i need to get into specifics to make it convincing. i'm wondering if anyone can help me with this. my argument is as follows:

for the ark to have landed on mt. ararat, the the depth of the ocean would have had to increase by about 10,000ft. that means that the pressure on the bottom of the ocean would have increased significantly, and my assertion is that the creatures who dwell on the ocean floor could not possibly have survived this increase in pressure.

one thing i would like to know is how much the pressure would have increased at the bottom of the ocean. i recall seeing a hydrostatic equation for pressure, but i didn't know what to use for the denities.

i would also like to know some specifics about the fauna of the ocean floor. anyone know about deep see life? anyone know a specific organism that definately wouldn't survive such an increase in pressure, and couldn't survive 10,000 feet from the floor of the ocean?

any help would be appreciated, as i would like to write this up a little more formally. references are good. thanks.

Nostalgic Pushhead

Nope. They'll just say, "Well, if God can cause a massive flood over the ENTIRE earth, I'm sure he could deal with the water pressure."
That logic explains EVERYTHING.

caravelair

ha ha. even so. i'd like to be able to ask them how noah got to the bottom of the ocean to retrieve these animals, and how he maintained an environment of 9000 pounds per square inch on the ark for them to live in.

Magus55

First of all, why do you assume the flood is impossible? Its actually more feasible then the universe and life creating itself, since God can do the impossible, where as matter can't.

Second, how is the pressure a good argument? The water life would just do what they do in the oceans now, swim up as the water level rises. The level of the water, to water life is basically a moot point, since its the same thing they do now, only higher above land.

And what creatures dwell on the ocean floor and survive now, that couldn't at any pressure? There is bacteria and some types of plants in the Mariana's trench. If the creatures there now, can survive, they can survive any pressure. Fish and shrimp were found at 27,000 ft down. The trench is deeper than Everest is high. There are creatures known as barophillic that thrive on extremely high pressures.

Anything in the oceans that doesn't handle high pressures well, would just swim up with the rising water.

Mageth

First of all, why do you assume the flood is impossible?

Well, there just ain't enough water to cover all the mountains, Magus. And not enough ark to handle all the animals. And absolutely no geologic evidence of such a flood. The list of impossibilities continues from there...

Its actually more feasible then the universe and life creating itself,

Comparative feasibility doesn't make anything true. And who claims that the universe or life created themselves anyway???

since God can do the impossible, where as matter can't.

Name me one impossible thing that God can do.

(Hint, if something's impossible, nothing can do it).

And what creatures dwell on the ocean floor and survive now, that couldn't at any pressure?

A bit of a stretch, that. Of course there are pressures beyond which no life could survive.

beastmaster

How did coral survive the flood? Can coral reefs survive for one year under 10,000 feet of water? Coral doesn't seem well-equipped to "swim up" ...

Perhaps the reefs temporarily relocated to the mountainsides for the year and then scrambled back down as the flood water receded? Maybe geologists will find evidence of recent coral reefs on Mt. Ararat some day -- that would be interesting. Or maybe god concealed the evidence -- I mean if he's powerful enough to flood the earth he's powerful enough to hide all the evidence.

Wow god is powerful! I better not piss him off!

caravelair

first of all, the bible clearly states the size of the boat, and it couldn't possibly have fit millions of animals. and it would have had to have enough storage for food for every species of animal for an entire year. furthermore, most species of plant would not survive the flood, so there would have had to be space for millions of plant species too. and noah and his family would have to have fed and cared for all of these organisms for the whole year. they would have had to feed and care for several thousand animals an hour each, even if they worked non stop 24 hours a day for the entire trip. where did all the water go after the flood? come on, how can anyone not see how rediculous a story it is?

i am talking about animals that dwell on the floor of the ocean. that is the environment they are adapted to live in. some of them may live exclusively on the ocean floor, or some of them may have some other reason they are at the floor, and not higher. i'm sure that there's at least 1 species that could not survive 10,000 feet off the ocean floor, since the ocean floor wouldn't be there, and that makes it a completely different type of environment. i came here to see if anyone knew examples of such species, so hopefully someone will.

no species could survive at ANY pressure. every physical object can be crushed at some pressure. the point is, there only has to be 1 single species on the ocean floor that couldn't survive 10,000 feet deeper, then noah would have had to account for that organism, which would be impossible. 10,000ft should amount to a significant increase in pressure.

but not if they are not adapted for an environment without a floor below them.

caravelair

coral! that's a good example! thanks!

Mageth

Coral reefs, not to mention the thousands of species that depend on coral reefs for their survival.

Magus55

http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...nimals_ark.asp

What else created it? Or i guess you are playing word games, and mean it already existed? Abiogenesis still reaches odds so high its rediculous to even think its possibility. ( oh but of course, since talkorigins says its feasible - it must be true?).