SLD

I thought I'd throw this thought out for general discussion by those of you more familiar with the Philosophy of Quantum Physics than me:

Is God an alternative to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics?

IOW, as opposed to assuming that the collapse of the wave function creates a split in the universe, could it be that God is using quantum physics to control the outcome of certain events?

Just a thought for debate.

SLD

Philosoft

How would God "use" quantum physics, as per our current limited understanding, to "control" anything?

K

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. In a many worlds interpretation, all possible results happen - God would be irrelevent. I think you are probably more interested in a single world interpretation. But then I'd ask you if you believe God would wait for an observation to be made (to collapse the wave function) in order to influence events in our world.

Jobar

SLD, I have seen arguments like this before. Basically, the theory goes that a conscious observer is needed to collapse each and every quantum superposition of states; and this consciousness is God. For a thorough refutation of this, albeit at a rather high technical level, look for Victor J. Stenger's The Unconscious Quantum.

He uses several lines of argument to attack the idea, one of which is that consciousness is a very complex sort of information processing. To process information requires energy, so if all quantum events required consciousness, every single event would imply other quantum events (which are the energy used by the consciousness collapsing the wave function), which would themselves require conscious attention, which would themselves require conscious attention... it's an infinite regress.

And we can't really talk about 'consciousness' being 'outside the universe'- because that's simply meaningless, because all we observe is by definition inside the universe.

With all that said, it may be possible to make a good argument that matter/energy is consciousness- that is, that some sort of information processing is equivalent to material reality. This is called 'idealism'- reality is more like idea than it is like matter. And for more on *that* particular notion, try The Self-Aware Universe by Dr. Amit Goswami.

And, if you read and understand both those books fully- then come back here and explain them to me, please!

Shadowy Man

And what theory might that be?

NightWatchman

Photons, which are angles of light, which are messenger particles are collapsed to a microdot, when you observe them, and, youve got mail!

How do you observe and collapse the wave function?
Ive already told you elsewhere in this rediculous place.
everything is quantum!


nightwatchman

excreationist

SLD:
I think I understand what you're saying... basically you're talking about how in quantum physics, there can be many possible outcomes. In the MWI, all of the outcomes happen, by the universe splitting into many parallel universes. But perhaps there is only one universe, and God chooses what will happen when there can be a choice... it's like controlling the dices every now and then.
This isn't really an argument for the existence of God... it is about how God could interact with the world while sort of not breaking the "rules" of quantum physics... I mean he still would be only choosing valid possibilities... though in quantum physics particles can even disappear and appear by chance... God could use that to make huge objects appear and disappear.
In quantum physics, the quantum fluctuations could affect the world in significant ways... and there is a microscopic chance that literally "anything" could happen. e.g. you could be given false memories, etc. But God seems to be hiding in the shadows - perhaps he is making things appear fairly random to compensate for when he rigs the dice.

NightWatchman:
Maybe your input would be more appreciated in the "~~Elsewhere~~" forum...

Jobar

NightWatchman, I have moved your other posts on this topic to a new thread in ~Elsewhere~ named "Everything is quantum!"

I haven't seen a single one of your posts which I felt was really relevant to the topic, and comprehensible to a general audience. And your habit of posting multiple times, one after another, is not winning you any brownie points.

Judging from your posts, your understanding of science and theology is, to put it gently, quite idiosyncratic and very far from the main stream of modern thought. If you think you have relevant and original contributions to make to Internet Infidels, you are welcome to make them- but if you continue to interrupt other people's threads, and trying to drag the conversation off into some strange and mysterious direction, I will be forced to start extensively editing or deleting your posts.

If you want to start topics about your, ah, unique philosophical viewpoint, please do so in ~Elsewhere~. If you want to take part in conversations here in EoG, I require you to keep your posts short and to the point.

This does not constitute a formal warning, but if I have to address this problem again it will be. Jobar, moderator.

SLD

First of all, let me thank those of you who've responded so far and especially you Jobar for throwing Nightwatchman's posts out of here. I do not want to get into a discussion of how the Bible supposedly predicts quantum physics (if that was the point of his posts).

To explain my question a little more clearly (and yes excreationist, I think you've got it), classical physics paints a picture of the universe as basically deterministic - our typing out this discussion was determined in the initial state of the universe (or perhaps infinitesimally thereafter). The advent of quantum physics has destroyed this notion. Quantum particles are described as the superpositions of their various states (basically). They exist in a variety of states all at once, their state only determined by the actual act of observation. While some have argued that the wavefunction collapses when it enters the brain of a conscious observer, the alternative has been stated that the consciousness of the observer is actually split by the process of observation. That is a simple photon entering into our retina (actually we would need more than one but you get the "picture") interacts with the cells of the retina and thus sends a still indeterminate signal along our optic nerve. It then interacts with our macroscopic brain and we have the sensation that the wave function collapses in a particular way. If the wave function collapses one way, it lead us down the path to say choosing chicken tetrazini off the menu and the other way we chose the steak tartar. In the many worlds interpretation, both happen. One in one universe, the other in another branching universe that splits away the moment of the collapse. Now of course there are many types of quantum interactions creating the branching of the universe and by some estimates, there would be on the order of 10^100 universes created since the start of the big bang some 15 billion years ago. Many would not be much different than ours, but others might be radically different. (Just think in some other parallel universe, all of you are bible thumpers and Jerry Falwell is an atheist!!!!! )

But back to my point: what if instead of splitting the universe, God decides, “Daggum it, there’s just too many people ordering Steak Tartar at this restaurant and good ole’ Joe who goes to church every night and sings songs about me is gonna lose his butt if I let anymore people order steak tartar.” Next thing you know the wave function of a photon that has just entered your brain is determined one way and you order the chicken tetrazini. I.e. God knows how to control the collapse of the wave function. And yes, K, this does mean a single world interpretation where God waits for the wave function collapse in order to determine the fate of the universe.

Excreationist is right that this theory is more of a description of how God could interact in the universe and control it's destiny while remaining in the background and not violating the laws of physics. But that argument is also one for the existence of God. It is an answer to the atheist question of why don’t we see god. We do, he just manifests himself through quantum fluctuations in the universe. We just don’t notice such fluctuations and we attribute them to either “free will” or the splitting of the universe into it’s various potential quantum states.

Now, I am not arguing that God could make things disappear such as large boulders or mountains. I think there are limits to quantum effects. The many worlds interpretation does not postulate that every conceivable universe exists. I wouldn’t think that there exists a universe where I suddenly sprout wings and can fly. And even though it is quantum mechanically possible that Jesus could have walked on water, I don’t believe it happened, in either this universe or any other parallel universe, as it so improbable as to be irrelevant – even with 10^100 universes. (I think I’ve seen a calculation that claimed that was on the order of about 10^50,000 or so). Rather I throw this argument as a way of God controlling conscious thought processes along with a few other physical systems on a small scale.

Bear in mind that this argument is different from what Jobar is saying. I do not believe that under quantum physics the collapse of the wavefunction requires a “conscious” observer or an intelligent observer. It merely requires an observation or measurement. But there is no difference between an intelligent conscious being making the measurement and any other process involving a quantum transition between states. All quantum interactions result in the wave function collapse. Thus I don’t see the argument for God in terms of the requirements that the wave actually collapse to some sort of definite state. I don’t see why we even have to get off on the tangent of an infinite regression to do this either, but perhaps I need to look carefully at Stenger’s book.

I should mention, that I don’t necessarily believe any of this, I have severe doubts as to the existence of any deity in reality. I do however enjoy listening to the debate these ideas engender and in particular to learning more about quantum physics and whether this idea violates our understanding of quantum physics in ways not violated by the MWI. And as a book suggestion let me throw out “The Meaning of Quantum Theory” by Jim Baggott, which is where most of my understanding of quantum mechanics comes from. He has a nice chapter devoted to the more philosophical interpretations of quantum mechanics and even discusses the possibility that quantum physics is basically science running into its limits and finding God.

R/ SLD

excreationist

SLD:
About the number of possible parallel universes:
You said that some people have suggested that there could be 10^100 or 10^50,000 universes....
Well I think in the MWI there would be more universes than that.... maybe the people meant the "order of magnitude" was 10^100 (i.e. 10^(10^100)).

e.g. I think there are about 10^90 particles in the known universe. Let's say there were 10 10-sided dices that were thrown 10 times per second. In each second, there are 10^10 possible histories for each dice. And altogether, there are 10^(10^10) possible histories for the 10 dices each second.
Or 10^10,000,000,000.
Now if the ten 10-sided dices are thrown for 10 seconds (100 throws at 10 throws per second), there are 10^(10^10,000,000,000) possible histories, which is a 1 with 10 billion zeros.
I think that working out is ok.
Now quantum fluctuations don't involve 10 possibilities - let's say they involve 2 possibilities - well it only takes a series of about 3 or 4 fluctuations (2^3 or 2^4) to be equivalent to a 10 sided dice roll.

BTW, in the Copenhagen interpretation it involves the collapse of the wavefunction during measurement. In MWI I think different possibilities just happen, whether there is something "measuring" it or not.