Fiach

That is the real message of Pascal's Wager. Santa, and the Tooth Faerie are nice, benevolent, not cruel, don't send you to Hell, and doesn't demand worship. If you fail to believe those just and kind beings if existent would not hurt you.

The Christian/Islamic argument based on Pascal is that if you have a number of god from which to choose for belief, your safest bet is to pick the most evil, malicious, cruel, vindictive, sadistic, violent, jealous, and demanding of worship God. If you pick the worst god, and you are wrong, no harm is done if the Earth Mother is the real god or there is no God.

But if you pick the kind loving earth mother, and are wrong, and Jesus/Joe Hovah is the real god, you will be tortured in a lake of fire for eternity.

The only problem is if you pick Jesus as God, and are wrong. Allah is the real one god, then you might burn forever for Blasphemy.

So your problem is that there are three worst Gods, Allah and Joe Hovah, and Trinity/Jesus. All of them are of course imaginary. I add that disclaimer. But each is noted more for being feared than loved. Each is portrayed as a cosmic punisher. Each demands absolute submission and dogmatic exactness.

So Christians, what if you are wrong, and Allah is the real god, and you face him at Judgment Day to explain your blasphemy of worshipping a mere prophet as God?

Fiach

Magus55

I never said you had to prove God doesn't exist because you don't believe in him. The statement was those entities don't exist. That is a statement of fact not belief.

Fiach its a shame you hate us. I don't hate atheists. There really isn't anyone i hate except maybe Hitler. Muslims committ there atrocities in the name of Allah because Allah tells them to, Christians follow the New Testament and Jesus. Jesus said love they neighbor, not kill him. The Christians in history that have killed did it by their own merit and false belief, not because Jesus told them to.

Of course this doesn't belong here, but its amazing how we "evolved" (according to atheists) from killing for survival, to killing for pleasure and hate. Doesn't evolutionist theory state that we evolve for the better ? Cause we are "evolving" for the worst...

Magus55

Well, Islam and Allah are harder to prove and accept than Christianity, so if anything i'd say the two most likely results are either Christianity or Atheism. In Islam, atheists are going to hell too because Allah judges people by whether he likes them or not, and whether they have done enough works and killed enough people to statisfy him Sounds just like Satan.

Jesus on the other hand: love, peace, turn the other cheek, forgiveness. I'll stand by Jesus thanks

Fiach

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55
[B]I never said you had to prove God doesn't exist because you don't believe in him. The statement was those entities don't exist. That is a statement of fact not belief.

Fiach its a shame you hate us. I don't hate atheists.

It would be a shame IF I hated you. I don't. I vigourously support your right to believe what you belief. I only hate those who do evil in the name of their god (killing innocent people). I also hate Atheists who do evil. (Stalin, Pol Pot). I don't hate all Christians, and I apologise if my words were too vague. I have many Christian Friends in America (I can't find many in my town.)

There really isn't anyone i hate except maybe Hitler. Muslims committ there atrocities in the name of Allah because Allah tells them to, Christians follow the New Testament and Jesus. Jesus said love they neighbor, not kill him. The Christians in history that have killed did it by their own merit and false belief, not because Jesus told them to.

I assume you are sitting down. I don't want you to fall down at what I am about to say. I agree with what you said there. Furthermore, I agree that Jesus as portrayed in the N.T. is a good moral role model. His sermon on the Mount is wonderful. I need to be more specific. I don't fear your God for obvious reasons. I don't fear every Christian. I only fear those who kill people for religious reasons be they misinterpreted or more Old Testament based. I put the Christian Army of God in the same bed with Al Qaeda.

Of course this doesn't belong here, but its amazing how we "evolved" (according to atheists)

Actually in Europe the overwhelming majority of Christians accept evolution as fact, not conflicting with their Christianity. Many would put an Intelligent Design asterix on it, with which I do not agree but we don't disagree on the results. It is only in America that Christians seem so resistent to science, feeling that it weakens faith by making absolutist literalism untenable.

from killing for survival, to killing for pleasure and hate.

Evolution is not all about killing. It is a complex scientific process, the fitness that served survival and selection, was often for climate changes, environment changes (forest to grassland), adaptation of armour, greater speed, or greater size because of more dangerous predators. A major factor in Human evolution is felt to be environmental change of rain forest to savanah, to grassland. It selected primates who could walk fast, run, stand up to see predators in high grass, carry their young and carry food, and later weapons.

Doesn't evolutionist theory state that we evolve for the better ?

No, evolution only evolves the organism to survive a change in the rules of the game (climate, dietary availability, predator danger.)

Cause we are "evolving" for the worst...

No really. We still have bad blokes about. Saddam and Osama, and that barmy Mitchell bloke who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. But we have things unheard of two millenia ago. Examples: Doctors Without Borders that sends us on assignments to areas of crisis like Ruanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sudan, Uganda, Ethiopia. We also have better Christian missionaries, who not only proselytise but acted as "on the job" trained Nurses for us in Ruanda treating sick and injured. Here was a good example of almost entirely Atheistic Doctors and Christian missionaries working 16 hour days as a team helping the suffering. I don't think Humanity is worse, it is actually improving with yet a long way to go.

Peace to you, Magus. Lets try hard to discuss these issues and try to be cordial and maybe friends.

Fiach

oriecat

I find this statement very interesting. Maybe you just forgot to include "because they think Allah tells them to" but you didn't say that, so it sounds very much like you think Allah is real and talking to Muslims. Do you believe that? Or do you believe that Allah is Satan, acting like he is a god, and confusing the Muslims?

Magus55

I meant by Allah tells them to because The Koran says that the second best thing a muslim can do is kill the enemy. Everything in the Koran that reflects killing the enemy, participating in jihad, having multiple wives and being able to beat them, paradise of sex with virgin women and little boys etc., in which they all are supposedly coming from Allah, are exact representations of the kind of muslim Mohammed was. I find it interesting how Allah and Mohammed are basically the same people yet the Koran claims Mohammed is nothing more than a prophet. Thats one reason i find fault with Islam.

Yes of course people say well the Old Testament had some of that stuff. Yes it had some ( not nearly as bad as the Koran) but times were much much different back then. It wasn't the age of Grace and understanding. Just like a parent who is always involved with a young child's life, and then lets them have more responsibility when they get older so too does God. The OT was the early, "young child", stages of his plan. Thats why you see God more active in the OT then the new. He performed miracles through people and dealt out judgement. The crimes and problems with the people in the OT were very very severe though, even by today's standards, so God executed rightful judgement on people back then and they were warned about it.
If you notice though, when the Age of Grace is ushered in ( the NT) Jesus shows how loving and forgiving God actually is, and people are given more responsibility. There is no change in the Koran. Allah supports jihad, beating women, sex with virgins and little boys, and killing the enemy throughout all of the Koran. Thats why so many terrorists are muslims. I see Islam as brainwashing scheme of Satan and the sexual and violent writings and teachings of a sadistic, sex charged, violence prone "self-proclaimed" prophet.



I believe Allah is a creation of Satan. Satan influences the Islams to hate and rival against God's Christians and Jews.

Yellum Notnef

Where does Satan live?

Harumi

As an atheist, I will say that I hate no one.

I define hate as the willingness to hurt, kill, or torture another human being in whatever means possible. I will honestly say that I have never felt such a feeling. I'm glad that I am unable to hate.

Yes, there are times when I claim that I hate someone, but after close self-examination, I realize that should I be given the opportunity to hurt them, I would not do it. If the people who hurt me should ever ask for my help, I would forgive them and help them, because I am unable to hold a grudge. That is not, in my opinion, hate.

Do I hate God? No. Even when I was a theist, I did not hate the gods of the old or the God of the Christian religion. It was not hate that lead me to atheism. It was lack of proof, and the sudden realization that God did not exist.

Do I fear?

Yes. I fear the Christian zealots who believe I will go to hell. I fear those who smile and nod self-righteously as they proclaim my fate and pat their little black Bibles. I fear them.

When I asked an ex-friend of mine if he would kill me if God told him to and he said yes, I was afraid. Terrified.

He and I are no longer friends.

This continuation of fear is what I dislike most about the Christian religion. Why would a omnibenevolent God feel the need to have his followers fear Him? Why does he feel the need to torture those who refuse to believe in Him?

If such a God was real, I could not worship Him. I cannot, in all honestly love an Omnipotent Being who demands fear at the same time.

I would rather go to Hell, and burn.

Reprobate

Despite the beautiful descriptions in the Bible, if Heaven is filled with Christians, I'll pass and prefer Hell. Probably has the best musicians too... If I'd have to listen to gospel all day I'd go nuts...

Harumi

Ever heard the tale of Stagger Lee (sp?)? Supposedly they've installed air conditioning down in hell too, not to mention all the good music and barbeque.

I think I'll go down there instead.