Javaman

In another thread, the subject of the OT Messianic Prophesies was raised. I "borrowed" this list:

Prophesies concerning:

Christ's birth: Is 7:14; Is 9:1,6-7; Hos 11:1; Mic 5:2,4-5.

Christ's life: Gen 3:15; Gen 49:8-11; Deut 18:18-19; Is 11:1-5,10; Is 35:4-6; Zech 9:9; Ps 2:7; Ps 78:2.

Christ's death: Ps 22:1,7-8,16,18; Ps 34:20; Ps 41:9; Ps 69:21,26; Is 50:6; Is 52:13--53:12; Is 63:8-9; Zech 11:12-13; Zech 12:10.

Christ's resurrection: Ps 16:10; Ps 49:15; Ps 68:18; Is 28:16-18.

...from a website. Having lurked here for enough time, I think the first (Is 7:14 - 14 Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,) is pretty darned shaky. My take on this one is that the event was an immediate one... and the NT messiah wasn't named Immanuel.

I think it would help the other thread if some of you in this higher forum would help out. Even if you think some are valid... I mean, some of them have to be, right?

My Thanks

CJD

Javaman, this thread is currently discussing how to read biblical prophecies in general (I encourage you to join the fray); and this thread discusses in detail the Isaiah 7 prophecy. While the representative Christian views therein (offered by myself) are not widely held among the average American fundamentalist, I do believe they have historical warrant (given fundamentalism and its largely pathetic biblical hermeneutic re: prophecy is a fairly recent trend)--not to mention doing justice to the actual text.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

CJD

keyser_soze

Shaky? what single part of it was fulfilled?

Javaman

Thank you, CJD. I've tried to follow the first thread you posted although it's a bit broad. The latter I will read ASAP. I think I'd still like to see a discussion specifically on those prophesies dealing with the coming of Christ. I'm reading through the other quotes that I posted trying to make sense of them but I'm not having much luck.

I don't know Greek or Hebrew so I'm mucking my way through using Young's Literal Translation. That may not be the smartest way, though, so any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Javaman

Is the Isaiah passage the one where "virgin" is really "young girl" in the Hebrew (?)?

edited to add... that's probably in the thread CJD gave me.
edited again to add... duh, it surely is. I wouldn't have thought this passage could generate that many posts. Then again, when there's so much riding on it...

keyser_soze

So a young girl has a baby....and that is the basis for a fulfilled prophecy, as long as we're ignoring half of the prophecy(and btw, the only part of the prophecy that DOESN'T happen every day in said time and location)..

Bobzammel

There are many prophecies which the gospels and letters use, and Christians themselves have found more. But they are all fairly shaky. The bulk of prophecy is found in Isiah and the Psalms, but there are problems which are detailed in other threads, and probably on many articles on this site. Check out "Fabolous prophecies of the Messiah" for a rough, if not perfect, examination.
It's important to realize that the early Christians mostly used Greek translations of the Hebrew text, and I think that's where a great deal of their mistakes in interpetation are found.

Fr.Andrew

It's my understanding that Jews will know the Messiah has come precisely because all messianic prophecy has been fulfilled--signalling the arrival of the Messianic Age. The Kindgom of God.
It's interesting to take a look at some messianic prophecy which has demonstrably not been fulfilled. Not by Jesus, not by anyone.
Christians explain this away with talk of a Second Coming, but there's nothing in Jewish scripture to my knowledge which speaks of the Messiah returning after a period of time to clear up unfulfilled prophecy.

"And He [Messiah] shall judge among the nations and decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (2:4)
Obviously this prophecy has not been realized, so the messiah has not yet come.

"And the Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt and wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind, and smite it into seven channels, and make men cross dryshod." (11:15)
Of course the Nile flows merrily along and has not dried up in recorded history.

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (12:2)
Our graveyards remain full, so this prophecy is apparently on hold as well.

And, just for silliness.
"And on both sides of the bank of the stream, all trees for food will grow; their leaves will not wither nor will their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because their waters flow from the Sanctuary; their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine." (47:12)
You'll recall that Jesus cursed the fig tree because it was out of season and had no fruit for him to eat. Perhaps he was angry because the lack of fruit proved the lack of Messiah?

Javaman

Is that a book or is there a link you could provide if it's online? I looked for awhile but couldn't find it.

Thanks.

YHWHtruth

A common argument for the rejection of the virgin birth is in Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states "hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben" be hold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)".

Some say the Christians translate this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." Even having them make two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. Even mistranslating"ha" as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate "almah" as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah".

Reply: The great Hebrew grammarian, William Gesenius, stated:

"Peculiar to Hebrew is the employment of the article to denote a single person or thing (primarily one which is as yet unknown, and therefore not capable of being defined) as being present to the mind under given circumstances. In such cases in English the indefinite article is used" [Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, § 126q].
In this section Gesenius listed many examples including the *'almah* of Isaiah 7:14. Though Gesenius did not support the virgin birth, he nevertheless supported the use of the indefinite article in an English translation of this passage. In other words, according to the grammar and the context, the identity of the *'almah* was unknown to the participants of the story and to the prophet's audience.
The word ALMAH is never used in the Bible where it necessarily means anything other than virgin. The word occurs seven times in the Hebrew Bible:

Gen 24:43--where the word refers to the virgin Rebekah.
Exod 2:8--where the word refers to Moses' sister Miriam. She was obviously a virgin at the time Moses was born?
Psa 68:25--where the word refers to the female musicians in the procession escorting the king. There is no reason to question the virginity of these young women?
Song 1:3; 6:8--where the word refers to the attendants of Solomon's queens and concubines. There is no reason to question the virginity of these choice young women either.
I especially like how the Bible uses the 2 terms BETULAH and ALMAH:
Genesis 24:16 "The maiden [*na'arah*] was very beautiful, a virgin [*bethulah*]; whom no man had known." NJPS
In this verse Rebekah is referred to as a *bethulah*, but the text adds the qualifying clause "no
man had known her." Such a qualifying clause would be unnecessary if *bethulah*
unambiguously meant "virgin." Later in the same story, Rebekah is referred to as an *'almah* (vs.
43) without any qualifying clause.
Interestingly, the Septuagint (LXX), a Greek translation made by Jews before Christ used the word PARTHENOS here, the same word used for "Virgin" in the New Testament.
Christians do not need only chapter 7 verse 14 to point to proof from Isaiah. Consider the following literal fulfillments from the same book:
The birth of Immanuel Is 9:6a [Matt 1:23; Luke 1:31-33; 2:7-11]
The revival of the Davidic dynasty Is 11:1 [Matt 1:6, 16; Acts 13:23; Rev 5:5; 22:16]
Incarnation of Jesus Christ Is 28:16 [Matt 21:42]
Preaching of John the Baptist Is 40:3-5 [Matt 3:3; Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4-6; John 1:23]
Jesus at baptism and transfiguration Is 42:1a, 2, 3 [Matt 3:16, 17; 17:5]
Jesus beaten and spat upon Is 50:6 [Matt 26:67; 27:26, 30; Mk 14:65; 15:19; Lk 22:63; Jn 18:22]
Jesus setting his face towards Jerusalem Is 50:7 [Lk 9:51]
Israel failing to recognize her Messiah Is 53:1 [Jn 12:38]
Philip identifies Jesus as the one written of Is 53:7,8 [Acts 8:32,33]
Jesus remains silent during trial Is 53:7 [Matt 26:63; 27:12-14; Mk 14:61; 15:5; Lk 23:9; Jn 19:9; 1Pet 2:23]
Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world Is 53:7 [Jn 1:29; 1Pet 1:18,19; Rev 5:6]
Jesus was innocent of charges Is 53:9 [1Pet 2:22]
Jesus needed to be slain besides 2 criminals Is 53:11 [Lk 22:37]
Christ's resurrection was important to his occupying David's throne Is 55:3 [Acts 13:34]
Jesus fulfilled the call to the daughter of Zion by his triumphal entry Is 62:11 [Mt 21:5]

Max