Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 08:59 PM

Hello MrDarwin,

Quote:

Why not? Why does the punishment have to be eternal? How could a merciful God allow any soul to suffer eternally, with no hope of mercy, with no hope of relief?

David: You are making a legitimate point. I cannot guarantee that the punishment will continue eternally. For however long the punishment lasts, the punishment will be really terrible however and therefore souls might want to avoid it.

Quote:

If the damned pray to God for forgiveness, or at least to ease their suffering, does God hear these prayers? Are you suggesting that, regardless of whether God continues to love the damned or not, he/she/it would turn his/her/its back on them forever?

David: I would have to speculate in order to answer this question. Who am I to say that God will not hear the prayers of the damned?

Quote:

And yet many Christians not only speculate, they are quite certain of what happens to the damned, and it isn't pleasant. Are you suggesting you don't believe in Hell, or that you have doubts about whether damnation entails eternal suffering?

David: Hell is not a significant concern of mine. I would prefer that no one go to hell for any reason and have said that Christians ought to beg God for His mercy upon all souls, even upon the sinners and the blasphemers.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

phaedrus · 07-24-2002, 09:02 PM

Why dont you go to all the threads you started and respond to what people say?

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 09:02 PM

Hello Kind Bud,

Quote:

Please explain how the consequences of our actions must last for eternity before they mean anything to us in our present, mortal state of existence.

Also, I find this idea, that god created eternal punishment so as to make mercy possible, to be unsatisfying and circular. Can you rephrase it so as not make the Act of Creation sound like the biggest pud-pull of all time?

David: I know that the concept of hell is difficult for many people and the thought of eternal consequences for temporal sins is inexplicable.

Perhaps God's love is such that only a small number of people will receive eternal condemnation because of their horrendous crimes and atrocities. Personally, I prefer grace to punishment.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 09:05 PM

Hello madmax2976,

Quote:

Since it all seems to be mere speculation, I fail to understand why you stopped because it would require further speculation on your part.

David: I don't see any benefit of threatening anyone with eternal punishment. I would prefer that all people here receive the grace of God no matter what.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 09:12 PM

Hello Doubting Didymus,

Quote:

It is obvious to me that you have your own special answer for all spiritual matters that we could ever ask. My question is: how do you know that you are right?

David: I don't know that I am right. A fundamental aspect of my approach to religion is the recognition that I could be wrong about anything. See "Does David Mathews Teach the Truth?" on my home page: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1." target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1.</a>

Quote:

Do you have some special method of knowing for yourself that what you're saying is true? (such as faith, or special revelation). If this is the case, how are we to know?

David: No special method whatsoever, no inspiration at all. I say what I believe. I don't demand or expect anyone to follow me or believe me. I am not seeking followers. I have no need for folowers.

Quote:

Specific question: How do we, who have never 'felt' god, know that you are not making up your faith based on nothing?

David: You don't know and you don't need to know. I couldn't give you my faith even if I wanted to do so. You have to make your own choices about what you believe and you have to live your life as effectively as possible.

Quote:

I'm sure you will say 'I know for myself and do not need to prove anything', but then why should you be here at all?

David: I am here to talk with you.

Quote:

Here, we want to know why theists think we should believe in god. We also want to know why theists believe in god themselves. Are you aware that you are actually not saying anything at all?

David: I have said a lot, how else could I reach 700 posts?

Quote:

Why should we discuss our beliefs with you, if you won't discuss your own reasons for believing?

David: Because you enjoy discussing your beliefs.

Quote:

David: I am saved by God's grace. I am preserved by God's grace.

How do you know? Why do you think WE should believe this? Do you think saying it makes it true?

David: I know it by faith. I do think you should believe the same thing, but that is your own choice to make. Saying it does not make it true, the living God makes the message true.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 09:14 PM

Hello Splashing,

Quote:

1) What evidence does theism have that makes it at least as probable as B.I.A.Lism? "B.I.A.Lism in the gaps" arguments are just as strong as "God in the gaps" arguments, simply because it has not yet been proven that either argument applied to anything that is currently unknown is wrong, and that is all either one has going for it.

2a)Since we have yet to find a single B.I.A.Listic phenomenon, and all of the mysteries of all phenomena unraveled to date have proven to be naturalistic, would YOU say that it is logical to work under the assumption that the modern mysteries of abiogenesis, human consciousness and the origin of the universe have non-B.I.A.Listic solutions UNTIL a reason to believe otherwise becomes apparent?

2b)Since we have yet to find a single supernatural phenomenon, and all of the mysteries of all phenomena unraveled to date have proven to be naturalistic, would YOU say that it is logical to work under the assumption that the modern mysteries of abiogenesis, human consciousness and the origin of the universe have naturalistic solutions UNTIL a reason to believe otherwise becomes apparent?

David: I hate to say it but we sort of exhausted the B.I.A.L.ism discussion. I don't see any benefit in starting it all over again.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-24-2002, 09:25 PM

Hello Jobar,

Quote:

David, I have a question, one which I do not recall having seen before. You say that you do not believe in the necessary damnation of those of us who do not believe in Gods- that somehow, sometime, we will each be given the opportunity to decide our ultimate fate *after* we have sufficient evidence to make an informed decision. Have I stated your opinion correctly here?

David: I believe that on the Day of Judgment the atheists and other nonbelievers will have an opportunity to acknowledge God and plead for God's mercy. I believe that God's grace and mercy can cover the sins of every sort of person, including those who never knew or acknoledged God in this life.

Quote:

So, assuming I have- why bother to believe all the seemingly silly and counterintuitive things you say we should believe? Why not just continue as we are, using our human capacity for reason to steer our course through our lives, and keep declaring all talk of undetectable gods pointless nonsense?

David: The concept of God has a direct impact upon the human intellect which is beneficial to all people who contemplate the subject. I suppose that even atheists receive benefits from thinking about God and that is why this subject is not pointless nonsense.

Quote:

Many of us- I might even go so far as to say that ALL of the atheists and agnostics here- have tried to make it clear to you, that given an understanding of how there can be a perfect, all-powerful and all-loving God- who nevertheless creates a world where misery and imperfection abound- we would be willing to believe. Since there is no such understanding to be had for those of us who see no difference between God and any other con game, why should you feel called upon to convince us otherwise?

David: Atheists enjoy talking about God as much as any theist. God is such a powerful and attractive subject that humans have devoted their whole lives to exploring the subject, and humankind as a whole has invested several billion years to thought about God. I would not call such a huge investment a "con game."

Quote:

After all, in the great by-and-by all us atheists will be shown the errors of our ways, and allowed to experience the joys of Heaven (or the agonies of Hell if we so choose.)

David: It seems possible to me that the choice of fates in the afterlife may not be available to those who consciously choose to reject heaven in this life. In such a case, no amount of pleading on the Day of Judgment will preserve the soul from punishment.

Quote:

What reason is there for you to preach to us?

David: The reason is because many of your concerns are also my own concern.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

Bible Humper · 07-24-2002, 10:45 PM

Hello David,

Quote:

1) What evidence does theism have that makes it at least as probable as B.I.A.Lism? "B.I.A.Lism in the gaps" arguments are just as strong as "God in the gaps" arguments, simply because it has not yet been proven that either argument applied to anything that is currently unknown is wrong, and that is all either one has going for it.

2a)Since we have yet to find a single B.I.A.Listic phenomenon, and all of the mysteries of all phenomena unraveled to date have proven to be naturalistic, would YOU say that it is logical to work under the assumption that the modern mysteries of abiogenesis, human consciousness and the origin of the universe have non-B.I.A.Listic solutions UNTIL a reason to believe otherwise becomes apparent?

2b)Since we have yet to find a single supernatural phenomenon, and all of the mysteries of all phenomena unraveled to date have proven to be naturalistic, would YOU say that it is logical to work under the assumption that the modern mysteries of abiogenesis, human consciousness and the origin of the universe have naturalistic solutions UNTIL a reason to believe otherwise becomes apparent?[/I]

David: I hate to say it but we sort of exhausted the B.I.A.L.ism discussion. I don't see any benefit in starting it all over again.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

Well David, you never were able to answer this so I agree that it dragged on while I tried to get you to come out and admit that you could not meet the challenge. I asked you at least 6 times in the thread I linked above and in the "Welcome David Mathews" thread, but you keep giving answers of "I could beat your challenge, but I don't feel like it".

I'm disappointed that you continue this trend with your response to me here, apparently implying that you dealt with these questions when you certainly did not.

Anyways, at least I've shown you how flimsy the crutches that you prop your faith upon are. Perhaps my thread will serve as the kick to your faith's crutches that sends it tumbling down, but I doubt it. At your age, after so many years of being christian, especially the crucial formative years of your childhood, I don't think that there is much chance that you would ever be able to give up your faith, no matter what.

You will disagree with that of course, but maybe if you examine other religious believers, and how they rationalise everything into compatibility with their beliefs, you would realize that cognitive dissonance is not a phenomenon of the "weak minded" alone, just like hypnosis. Nobody thinks they could be misled by cognitive dissonance, it is the same sort of bias seen when you ask people if they are affected by repetitive commercials.

"Of course not!" they all claim, but for some odd reason more money than Bill Gates will ever see is thrown into airtime for commercials that don't affect anyone.

Think about it.

Take care, David.

David Mathews · 07-25-2002, 03:31 AM

Hello phaedrus,

Quote:

Why dont you go to all the threads you started and respond to what people say?

I have 700 posts so I have already responded to a whole lot of people. If there is some question of yours that I have not answered, please post it here. I can't go looking for it.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-25-2002, 03:34 AM

Hello Splashing,

Beginning with the proposition that God does not exist what sort of rational, reasonable and defensible worldview do you have?

Thanks,

David Mathews

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-24-2002, 09:02 PM	#22
phaedrus Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Indus Posts: 1,038	Why dont you go to all the threads you started and respond to what people say?

07-25-2002, 03:34 AM	#30
David Mathews Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 622	Hello Splashing, Beginning with the proposition that God does not exist what sort of rational, reasonable and defensible worldview do you have? Thanks, David Mathews

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.