Magus55

Hmm, so the Quran says the Bible is a sacred book, and correct ( or something along those lines - the Quran agrees with the Bible), yet the Quran specifically states Jesus is just a prophet, not the Son of God and Jews and Christians are going to Hell, and you, River, believe that Jesus is the Son of God because the Bible says so, but you don't agree because the Quran says not to?

Talk about your mind twister... me all confoosed.

kctan

Talk about mind twister & being confused ain't you a pot calling the kettle black ?

Dargo

This is such a common logical falacy among theists. I know my religion is right because all of the other religions are wrong!

Kilgore Trout

EstherRose said:

You christians are still just avoiding the question. The Old Testament is loading with atrocities. God is telling the Israelites to kill all the other tribes, and they do it. If that was in the Qur'an, christians would be saying that was a great example of why the Qur'an is objectionable. Because it's in the bible, they say those tribes deserved to be killed.

Why aren't you christians saying how you have the right to decide that the Qur'an is somehow more objectionable than the bible?

The same goes with contradictions. For every contradiction in the Qur'an muslims are going to have an answer for it. Just like you christians claim to have an answer for every contradiction in the bible.

EstherRose

I began as a skeptic of the bible. I once thought the bible was just a “nice” set of stories, just a collection of mythology. Then when I took a college course on the Bible as literature, I realized that I had been reading it on a superficial level and not trying to understand it from the context of the writers and customs of the time. Over the course of years accepted it as a historical document of a people. At that point things began to make sense to me. When I apply the freethinking model to the bible, I don’t get the same results as you do because I am reading it differently than you do. (Take cheap pot shots here.) I accepted the bible as the word of God after I accepted Jesus as my Saviour. When I prayed to God in submissiveness and accepted Jesus as His Son and my Saviour, there was a real change in me, a change that can only be described as the Holy Spirit. Now that I am a Christian, and the Holy Spirit is with me when I read the Bible, I can understand things now that I could not before. I realize that seems silly to many of you, and you think I must be some brainwashed deluded person, but I’m not.

I have found the Bible to be the inspired word of God whereas the Koran has nothing to with the word of God.

But if you’d rather have a non religious answer, I can elaborate further.

The Koran is the work of a man who believed himself to be possessed by demons. The Koran is riddled with inconsistencies that cannot be explained away by conventions of speech or anything else. It consisted of scraps of words that someone other than Mohammed put together years later and claimed was from him. It is a document with an impersonal capricious Allah and no hope for mankind.

It is a document based on falsehoods. For example, it claims the Trinity of the Christians is God, Jesus and Mary. Whether or not you believe in Christianity, you know what the Trinity is supposed to be. I’m pretty sure Allah would not have made such a blunderous error. Many of the surahs were lost when those who memorized them were killed. If God went to such effort to bring them down to earth, then he would have provided for their security. Even then, there were initially 25 variants of the Koran until the time of caliph Uthman who burned 24 variants and produced the final authorized version. That does not seem like the work of Allah to me. The hadith and sunnah are equally false. Since they are almost as important to muslims as the Koran, you all should evaluate those documents. They are legalistic and often “unusual” (to put it kindly).

Since I have many muslim friends, I have spent quite a bit of time getting to understand the Koran. The more I learn about it, the more I am convinced that it is a false document, not the word of God. I do not view this just through my Christian blinders. I view it as an intelligent thinking adult.

EstherRose

For a long time I didn’t. Then when I believed it was just an old document of a people, I believed any errors were human caused. When I accepted Jesus as my Saviour, I began to read with the understanding of the Holy Spirit. I read the bible in a way you cannot. There is not other way to put it.

I have read it. While I may not be too crazy about that part of the bible, I don’t reject God’s word. I try to live by the standards of the New Testament and that is what I focus on. I trust the Lord and know that He had reasons I do not comprehend at this time.

I’m also not real crazy about how this country has treated Native Americans, but I don’t reject the Constitution or Bill of Rights. I just work to live by a better standard.

Since I believe it is the word of God, I believe it contains a good moral basis to live by. Again I should explain that I primarily follow the New Testament, my personal choice. Before anyone jumps on me for not following the Law of Moses, the New Testament plainly says we are no longer bound by that. There are principles of moral living mentioned in the New Testament that we are to follow. Honestly, though, I don’t think it can be followed by everyone. If you don’t accept the Lord, then I doubt you can accept His word. I certainly didn’t before I became a Christian.

EstherRose

The freethinking filter for the Qur'an:

1)Is there evidence for the things described?

The Koran completely misrepresents the bible and cannot even say what the Christian Trinity is. That is just one of several major errors.

2)Is it free of error in scientific matters?

No. How is humanity made? Please explain the differences between surahs 96:1-2 (blood clot), 21:30 (water), 15:26 (burnt clay), 3:59 (dust), 19:67 (nothing), 11:61 (earth) and 16:4, 75:37 (drop of thick fluid).


3)Are there internal contradictions?

Which is created first heaven then earth (surah 79:27-30) or earth then heaven (surah 2:29)?

4)Is it a moral guide you would like to follow?

It is considered acceptable today to beat women since there is a surah (4:34) that allows it. Women are regarded as playthings to be used as men will (surah 3:14 women are possessions, surah 66:5 divorce if women don’t give sex when he demands it, surah 2:223 men use her sexually as you will). There is a hadith which says women are playthings for men to use.

There is also the moral wrongness of violence and jihad which is so prevalent among many Islamic countries even now, no matter how many apologists try to explain it away. (surahs 2:190-191; 2:193; 2:216; 2:25; 9:29; 8:13-17; 4:89 and hadith 9:57)



I do not have to be afraid of the Final Judgement. I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. I have assurance of my eternal salvation. Tell me River, are you certain of your final judgement? Have you done enough good works to tip the scales in your favor? Even then, Allah can still change his mind and condemn you.





Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?

Do you believe in salvation by faith in Jesus and not by works?

If you do not believe in these, then you are rejecting the bible.

winstonjen

First you need to prove that the bible is correct and such things exist. How do you know that the bible is perfect?

What about the many cases of genocide instructed by the bible, and done IN THE NAME OF THE BIBLICAL GOD, such as the Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.?

Or they're like you, taking what they want, and rejecting what they don't.

Doctor X

Funny, I still do not see application of these objections to the Bible.

What I do see is a classic dodge: "That in the text which is ridiculous is human error. That which I agree with and supports my hopes and dreams is 'inspired.'"

"Inspiration" is a rather foreign concept for the OT and NT; it carries no theological weight--anyone can claim their words are "inspired."

Nevertheless, as Kilgore Trout notes:

. . . such as Human Sacrifice!!!! [!--Ed.]

Yet, I would add:

Refusal of salvation of good people, to begin, does not seem a very nice thing.

What one person wants to believe is a personal matter; however, who the hell has the right to denigrate another person's religion whilst holding their religion over them?!

It is indeed as Demigawd notes, an infantile, kindergarten-playground whine of "my religion rocks while yours sucks!"

--J.D.

References:

Collins JC, "The Zeal of Phineas: the Bible and the Legitimation of Violence," JBL 122, 2003, 3-21.

who quotes:

Heider GC. The Cult of Molek: A Reassessment. JSOT Press, Sheffield: 1985.

Day J. Molech: A God of Human Sacrifice in the Old Testament. University of Cambridge Oriental Publications 41; Cambridge University Press, Cambridge: 1989.

Levenson JD. The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity. Yale University Press, New Haven: 1993.

Stern PD. The Biblical Herem: A Window on Israel's Religious Experience. BJS 211; Scholars Press, Atlanta: 1991.

Niditch S. War in the Hebrew Bible: A Study in the Ethics of Violence. Oxford University Press, New York: 1993.

Bree

So what kind of "understanding" did the Holy Spirit give you? I have heard Christians say that the Holy Spirit guides them over the parts of the Bible that are either A) false or B) no longer relevent. Is this what you are saying?