Freethought & Rationalism Archive

eldar1011 · 08-30-2002, 01:03 PM

(I'm not entirely sure if this is the right forum for this topic. Please accept my apologies if I am incorrect.)

...and birth is a medical procedure."

This is one quote that struck me last night during birthing class. My wife and I are taking a Bradley method class. For those unaware, the Bradley method is natural childbirth. For some, this goes beyond simply refusing to use epidurals. It can even include something as relatively benign as external fetal monitoring.

While I am accustomed to being skeptical about the supernatural, I've never had the occassion to be skeptical about science. But, that's exactly where I am today.

Based on what I've learned in class, medical technology and obstetrics have perverted the natural process of childbirth into something that fits the subject of this thread. I am astounded to see how this trend has begun and how it is so difficult to reverse.

It is perfectly obvious to me that while childbirth is difficult, it isn't something that is inherently dangerous to either mother or child. If it were, our species would never have come this far.

Yet, in contemporary America, women are constantly being bombarded with negative stories about childbirth. "The pain is unbearable"..."During labor, a woman has one foot in the grave"...."Can't be done without medication"....these are all things I've heard since announcing that we were expecting. If all these things were true, humanity would have died in the cradle a long time ago.

Furthermore, the medical establishment has gone to the extreme where nearly every birth is treated as a critical medical situation. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of cases require no medical intervention.

The rate of cesarean sections in America are considerably greater than that of other nations. This can't be because American births are that drastically different. The cause of this disparity must be related to something else.

I'm beginning to rant, sorry. I suppose what I really wanted to express was my shock that my skepticism is applied towards the medical establishment. Previously, I felt very comfortable with that particular area of science.

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: eldar1011 ]</p>

Autonemesis · 08-30-2002, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eldar1011:
...and birth is a medical procedure.

On some level, I suppose. On another level, there is no distinction between a baby and a turd. Both are produced by the biological combinination of foreign substances with material produced by the body, and both are ejected from the body when fully formed.

I am pretty sure there is little value in considering pregnancy and birth - or turds - from these perspectives, however.

eldar1011 · 08-30-2002, 01:19 PM

Kind Bud,

Sorry about the seemingly non-sensical post earlier. Somehow I submitted the post before I actually wrote anything.

Cursed chubby fingers...

ImGod · 08-30-2002, 01:42 PM

I would classify pregnancy as a condition and childbirth as a medical procedure. The specifics of the birth define how much of a medical procedure it becomes. If you decide to go "natural" read up on the other options in case you need them. The breathing exercises from our class were soon forgotten in real life application.

Our first daughter was 10 lbs, 13 oz and required induction, 8 hours of labor and 2 hours of hard pushing. Definitely needed the drugs. My daughter spent 7 days in the ICU after inhaling fluids during the difficult delivery. A 10 pounder looks really strange in an infant ICU.

Our second daughter was induced one week early so she wouldn't get too big. 8lbs, 2 oz. 2 hours of labor and 2 pushes. No complications. That one may have been a candidate for "natural" birth, but no way would my wife go without drugs after the first one.

My thought is if it hurts at all, use drugs (not my call on this one anyway). People used to perform surgery and dentistry without drugs but we somehow got past that.

To each their own, but make sure you keep the options open and listen to the people with experience. Good luck and congratulations.

eldar1011 · 08-30-2002, 01:59 PM

ImGod,

Thank you for the response and the well-wishes.

Of course, we are keeping our options open. We are having the baby in a hospital. As a matter of fact, we decided to take the Bradley method *because* we wanted to keep our options open. Nothing wrong with being an informed consumer.

I hope I didn't come off as an anti-technology loon. I suppose my main concern is how medical intervention is practically routine. That sort of thing seems counter-intuitive to me.

Annabel Lee · 08-30-2002, 02:30 PM

Medical intervention has become practically routine. What was considered drastic measures, in the past, has become normal procedures. C-sections and labor inductions, even 10-15 years ago, were done only under the most dire of cirumstances.

My first child I had naturally.It was a wonderful experience. Second one would have been natural too, except at the 24th hour of labor I finally yelled, "Time out!". Third was a true medical emergency and I needed an immediate C-section.

I've heard too many pregnant women say, "I'm having my baby induced this Tues." Of course my first reaction is, "I hope everythings okay." But it always seems to be for convenience sake.

We need to put our foot down with the medical establishment. They have an entire new generation of parents believing that these intrusive medical procedures are "normal". They are not. They should just be reserved for serious emergencies.
Well, let me step off my soapbox now.

Best wishes to you and your wife, Eldar.

elwoodblues · 08-30-2002, 03:18 PM

Quote:

It is perfectly obvious to me that while childbirth is difficult, it isn't something that is inherently dangerous to either mother or child. If it were, our species would never have come this far.

Wow, I gotta disagree in a big way. Childbirth is very dangerous to the _human_ animal, much more so than for other animals, for a very specific reason.

The head of a human infant is big. Very big. Much bigger compared to the size of the mother than any other animal. We need that huge head to house and protect a large brain; that's one of the prices we pay for complex communication, self-awareness and abstract thought. We get a lot with that brain; it's easy to see that we'd pay a big price for it evolutionarily.

Childbirth IS dangerous, both to the infant and the mother. Look at the death rate in childbirth in undeveloped countries. It's scarily high.

Check it out:

Quote:

But there is a huge maternal mortality gap across the globe. The vast
majority of these deaths occur outside the United States and Europe.
In India, 147,000 women die in childbirth. In Africa, 235,000. In all
developed countries put together, the toll drops to about 2,000.

<a href="http://www.utdallas.edu/dept/socsci/women-notes.htm" target="_blank">web page</a>

It's SUPPOSED to be dangerous. Dogs can have a litter of 9 pups and never be in real danger. But humans are in a much more precarious position. Dangerous childbirth is the price we pay for our cognitive functions, our mind, our brain.

SO USE IT! Use your brain to try to minimize the risk. Use it to figure out how to care for the child even before it's born. Use it to keep reserves of blood handy in case the mother hemmorhages. Use it to reduce that price we pay for it.

382,000 maternal deaths due to childbirth between India and Africa. All first-world countries COMBINED is 2,000 per year. Do you really think there are 161 times as many people in India and Africa than Europe, Japan, the US, Canada, etc?

Do the math. Use your brain. This is not science; this is foolishness.

tronvillain · 08-30-2002, 03:30 PM

eldar1011:

Quote:

Based on what I've learned in class, medical technology and obstetrics have perverted the natural process of childbirth into something that fits the subject of this thread. I am astounded to see how this trend has begun and how it is so difficult to reverse.

Why should anyone care if the modern day process of pregnancy and childbirth is "natural"? I am all for "perverting" what is natural if it decreases risks and discomfort. If many other people share this position, obviously the trend would be hard to reverse.

Quote:

It is perfectly obvious to me that while childbirth is difficult, it isn't something that is inherently dangerous to either mother or child. If it were, our species would never have come this far.

Nonsense. All that is required for species survival is that birth rate equal or exceed death rate, which easily tolerates a significant number of deaths during childbirth. The huge size of a human infants head alone makes childbirth an inherently risky process.

Quote:

Yet, in contemporary America, women are constantly being bombarded with negative stories about childbirth. "The pain is unbearable"..."During labor, a woman has one foot in the grave"...."Can't be done without medication"....these are all things I've heard since announcing that we were expecting. If all these things were true, humanity would have died in the cradle a long time ago.

Can you give actual examples of such bombardment? It's just that in television shows and movies women are frequently shown giving birth, and while it it portrayed as painful it is not generally described as "unbearable." While many such portrayals take place in hospitals medication is not overemphasized, and many other portrayals take place outside of hospitals entirely (taxis, elevators, etc).

Quote:

Furthermore, the medical establishment has gone to the extreme where nearly every birth is treated as a critical medical situation. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of cases require no medical intervention.

No, the medical establishment justifiably treats every pregnancy and birth as a riskly medical situation. While most cases may require no significant medical intervention, a significant number do, and that is why it pays to take every precaution.

Quote:

The rate of cesarean sections in America are considerably greater than that of other nations. This can't be because American births are that drastically different. The cause of this disparity must be related to something else.

Perhaps American women simply do not wish to endure the pain and discomfort of childbirth, or perhaps they do not wish have to recover from forcing an extremely large object through one of their favourite orifices. Why is this a problem?

Infinity Lover · 08-30-2002, 03:37 PM

I think the realy disturbing technological devolpment in relation to pregnancy is the camcorder.

Ever seen one of those homevideo's

recovering xtian · 08-30-2002, 03:38 PM

I will not argue that the medical community is much more willing to "interfere" with the birthing process, but as a mother of two I must say that I am glad.

With my first child, I was in labor for 24 hours and only dialated to 1 centimeter. My doctor, mercifully, put me in the hospital and induced. I know that if we had waited, it would have eventually happened on it's own. I also know that if I wait long enough my migraine will go away, but that doesn't stop me from taking Excedrin!

Yes, medical technology has changed the birthing process. So what?

08-30-2002, 01:03 PM	#1
eldar1011 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,074	Pregnancy is an illness... (I'm not entirely sure if this is the right forum for this topic. Please accept my apologies if I am incorrect.) ...and birth is a medical procedure." This is one quote that struck me last night during birthing class. My wife and I are taking a Bradley method class. For those unaware, the Bradley method is natural childbirth. For some, this goes beyond simply refusing to use epidurals. It can even include something as relatively benign as external fetal monitoring. While I am accustomed to being skeptical about the supernatural, I've never had the occassion to be skeptical about science. But, that's exactly where I am today. Based on what I've learned in class, medical technology and obstetrics have perverted the natural process of childbirth into something that fits the subject of this thread. I am astounded to see how this trend has begun and how it is so difficult to reverse. It is perfectly obvious to me that while childbirth is difficult, it isn't something that is inherently dangerous to either mother or child. If it were, our species would never have come this far. Yet, in contemporary America, women are constantly being bombarded with negative stories about childbirth. "The pain is unbearable"..."During labor, a woman has one foot in the grave"...."Can't be done without medication"....these are all things I've heard since announcing that we were expecting. If all these things were true, humanity would have died in the cradle a long time ago. Furthermore, the medical establishment has gone to the extreme where nearly every birth is treated as a critical medical situation. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of cases require no medical intervention. The rate of cesarean sections in America are considerably greater than that of other nations. This can't be because American births are that drastically different. The cause of this disparity must be related to something else. I'm beginning to rant, sorry. I suppose what I really wanted to express was my shock that my skepticism is applied towards the medical establishment. Previously, I felt very comfortable with that particular area of science. [ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: eldar1011 ]</p>

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08-30-2002, 01:19 PM	#3
eldar1011 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,074	Kind Bud, Sorry about the seemingly non-sensical post earlier. Somehow I submitted the post before I actually wrote anything. Cursed chubby fingers...

08-30-2002, 01:42 PM	#4
ImGod Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nebraska Posts: 6,264	I would classify pregnancy as a condition and childbirth as a medical procedure. The specifics of the birth define how much of a medical procedure it becomes. If you decide to go "natural" read up on the other options in case you need them. The breathing exercises from our class were soon forgotten in real life application. Our first daughter was 10 lbs, 13 oz and required induction, 8 hours of labor and 2 hours of hard pushing. Definitely needed the drugs. My daughter spent 7 days in the ICU after inhaling fluids during the difficult delivery. A 10 pounder looks really strange in an infant ICU. Our second daughter was induced one week early so she wouldn't get too big. 8lbs, 2 oz. 2 hours of labor and 2 pushes. No complications. That one may have been a candidate for "natural" birth, but no way would my wife go without drugs after the first one. My thought is if it hurts at all, use drugs (not my call on this one anyway). People used to perform surgery and dentistry without drugs but we somehow got past that. To each their own, but make sure you keep the options open and listen to the people with experience. Good luck and congratulations.

08-30-2002, 01:59 PM	#5
eldar1011 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,074	ImGod, Thank you for the response and the well-wishes. Of course, we are keeping our options open. We are having the baby in a hospital. As a matter of fact, we decided to take the Bradley method because we wanted to keep our options open. Nothing wrong with being an informed consumer. I hope I didn't come off as an anti-technology loon. I suppose my main concern is how medical intervention is practically routine. That sort of thing seems counter-intuitive to me.

08-30-2002, 02:30 PM	#6
Annabel Lee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Let Buzz Stay!! Posts: 5,567	Medical intervention has become practically routine. What was considered drastic measures, in the past, has become normal procedures. C-sections and labor inductions, even 10-15 years ago, were done only under the most dire of cirumstances. My first child I had naturally.It was a wonderful experience. Second one would have been natural too, except at the 24th hour of labor I finally yelled, "Time out!". Third was a true medical emergency and I needed an immediate C-section. I've heard too many pregnant women say, "I'm having my baby induced this Tues." Of course my first reaction is, "I hope everythings okay." But it always seems to be for convenience sake. We need to put our foot down with the medical establishment. They have an entire new generation of parents believing that these intrusive medical procedures are "normal". They are not. They should just be reserved for serious emergencies. Well, let me step off my soapbox now. Best wishes to you and your wife, Eldar.

08-30-2002, 03:37 PM	#9
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	I think the realy disturbing technological devolpment in relation to pregnancy is the camcorder. Ever seen one of those homevideo's

08-30-2002, 03:38 PM	#10
recovering xtian Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: texas Posts: 37	I will not argue that the medical community is much more willing to "interfere" with the birthing process, but as a mother of two I must say that I am glad. With my first child, I was in labor for 24 hours and only dialated to 1 centimeter. My doctor, mercifully, put me in the hospital and induced. I know that if we had waited, it would have eventually happened on it's own. I also know that if I wait long enough my migraine will go away, but that doesn't stop me from taking Excedrin! Yes, medical technology has changed the birthing process. So what?

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