Bobzammel

In one of Paul's attacks on Jews he makes a reference to Genesis 21:9, stating that Ishamel "persecuted" Isaac, something he states is repeated in the Jewish persecution of Christians. However if one goes to the actual passage in Genesis, it reveals something quite different: Ishmael is actually having a good time with Isaac, "Making him laugh"(Which BTW is a pun on Isaac's name--"He who laughs"). The reason Sarah kicks Ishmael out has to deal with land, not any "persecution!"

How does Paul put out these bizzaro interpetations? Was he reading the OT while drunk or stoned or something?

Volker.Doormann

To understand bias in biblical social relationships it is helpful to refer on other values than common social dogmas. Because these persons are only symbols of the human mental properties and not real persons, only the meaning of the symbol is to understand. From this view it may help to include the meaning of the india vedic term firstborn and twiceborn in that process of understanding. The origin meaning of this ancient thinking documented in the code of Manu Manusmriti doormann.org/manuslaw.txt is that the firstborn is the mortal body of men and the twiceborn is the awaking of the consciousness of the eternal immortal soul, which is located in that physical body, which comes from a mother.

In a lot of different stories in the hebrew bible - but also recognized by Jesus as it is told in the Gospel of John - this theme deals always with the very same process of recognition of the own consciousness as soul, which has no physical or time dependent properties.

Cain and Abel, Esau and Jacob, the dying of the firstborn Egypt , while Isra'El ascend to the state of (twiceborn) consciousness, in all that stories the second birth is a symbol of the awaking of the consciousness of the soul. And as one can learn from that teaching from Jesus, who has no kind words for his social father, mother, and brothers, and no time for people, who have first to bury their fathers, mirrors this symbol in his parables. There is never a political, religious or really social stress behind that stories, there is only the spiritual symbol waiting for to understand it.

According to the individual level of the growth of the consciousness about the own soul, the physical body, and the social bonding, decrease and can die .

I do not agree with any from that obscure writings, that is told it is written from Paul, but in an exception I think he has said a very important sentence in Gal 4:24: "Which things are an allegory: ... " . This leads direct to a symbolic understanding of this couple. The bondage of Israel in Egypt is an allegory of the descend ( down to Egypt) of the soul into a physical body. A lot of VIP's of that OT must go that way down to Egypt . Abram, Jacob, Mose, all they have gone down (as we all are now imprisoned in a physical body). Egypt, comes from the hebrew 'Mitzrayim' and means 'narrow places' or 'prison' and symbolize the human body. The hole story of Moses is a symbol of this bondage of the soul in a body, which is searching for a way back home, while he and Isra'El leaves back the dead physical body (=> Egypt). Until today the Jews celebrate this day at the first full moon in spring (Passah), while they kill a lamb as a symbol, that Isra'El has leaved back a dead body.

Not many own this understanding inside the jewish or christian community. Jesus was aware about that, but the teachers of the Talmud at his time have had no more understanding in this symbols, he has called them hypocrites and has warned against them. He has said 'you must born again', and no one of the jewish teachers where able to understand that symbol. Later in the jewish mysticism some of that origin symbols of the stories of the Torah was reknown as symbols of the human spirituality.

The symbols in the stories of hebrew bible (pentateuch) have whether a social nor political dimension, they are simple figures of that, what each individual soul is owned. But I think before all the religious leaders are aware of, that all figures in the scriptures are simple symbols of men, they will die without that consciousness, what is called twiceborn or born again . They will probably all die as a 'firstborn'.

Volker

Bobzammel

Sorry but that didn't really help at all. It's too much of an Amos-style reply.

Genesis says Isaac was laughing or playing with his half-brother. Paul stated there was persecution. Unless laughter was a form of persecution(Maybe he was being tickled?), Paul's expanation does not make sense.

Amos

These persons are like properties, as you call them, and are what gives human beings a "personality." Some of these 'persons' will gather and become 'trades' or 'skills' and these become our "shepherds" who in turn keep track of these 'properties.' In today's language they are called "eidetic images" because they have been "tied down" into our soul (Plato) where they become strongholds and assets that we use to gain status as social beings.

The "mother" is the woman who is the negative stand of our soul now become positive to give rebirth because the "shepherds' (from my interpretation above =eidetic images) were "out herding sheep at night." This means that to be twiceborn (our rebirth) we must be "beyond theology" and therefore at midnight, midwinter midlife which is the darkest point of our rational existence (your firstborn), before our non-rational mind (the woman) can be in charge of our destiny. This image is depicted in religious art where Mary is in charge of the donkey (the animal man) with the rational Joseph identity trailing behind during their journey to Bethlehem. This woman is later called Mary but was the woman that was taken from man in Gen.2. She is to become the womb of man and until then presides over the tree of life (subconscious mind).

Bobzammel

....


Can somebody give me a *straight* reply?

Volker.Doormann

Yes, I agree in general. All that figures are images or symbols. Ismael is the firstborn and is related to egypt as the symbol of the body in that a soul descent down to egypt , and Isaac is the symbol for the twiceborn soul, which has no relation to the flesh of a human body, because a soul has no material properties. Only firstborn human bodies are related to flesh and mortal properties. A soul never can die.

Like most of the parables of Jesus, all that stories about the fistborn and twiceborn sons are parables too, to recognize the spiritual core of the stories.

Volker

Layman

Perhaps if you gave the reference in Paul to the persecution?

How do you know he's referring to the "laughter" in Gen. 21:9?

Amos

The persecution is a reaction to the liberation from Judaism. In the pure metaphysical sense this was the reason why the Jews condemned Jesus-the-soon-to-be-ex-Jew through crucifixion (equals liberation, "it is finished"). The intensity of this persecution finds its hight in the temptation in the desert where religion (Judaism) tried to win Jesus back. Opposite this temptation was the joy of liberation and this was depicted with the wedding in Cana allegory. These are two forces are pulling against each other in the mind of every man at that particular time during metamorphosis.

The laughter in Gen.21:9 was equivalent to the rejoicing of Elizabeth in Lk.1:58 and the the "fasting" of Abraham was equal to the "fear descend[ing] on all the neighborhood; throughhout the hilll country of Judea[ism] these happenings began to be recounted to the last detail" (Lk.1:65). This indicates that an internal evaluation for the purpose of faith was taking place, or that the melancholy of Abraham was persitent.

xoc

(Galatians 4:21-29)

(Genesis 21:8-10)

Rather than this being a case of Ishamel making Isaac laugh, it seems more to me a case of perhaps Ishamel mocking Isaac. Mocking is a common form of "persecution", although obviously not the most severe form. But considering we are talking about children here, "mocking" is usually the most severe kind of persecution that is found amongst them. It is also a kind of persecution that the early Christians saw common of the Jews against them. Using this case as an example for Paul's teaching of grace over observing the law is a powerful reversal of the teaching of the opposing Jews. They see themselves as the heirs of Isaac, the "promised seed" (as the Bible's genealogy teaches) and the "Ishmaels" to be the enemy about them, the heathen. Paul's theology sees the verse on the promised seed of Abraham being the "one through whom all nations are blessed"; seeing the singular, takes this to refer to Jesus Christ, and takes the story to be about those who put their faith in God's promise(as Abraham did) as opposed to those who do not, rather than about Jews and Gentiles and their status as "Chosen People" by God. Spiritually, the "true Jew" is the one who follows Abraham's example, not just the one that is descended from him through Isaac(and Jacob).

ceb

What Bible are you quoting?

The New Oxford Annotated Bible has this:

Verse 9 is footnoted, and states that
The footnote to Gal. 4:29-30 states: