Grumpy

The kids aren't breaking the law, of course. Only the teacher & the school administration are violating the constitutional principle which prevents government endorsed religious practice.

Pensee

UPDATE: I've talked to my supervisor about it. I spoke to her calmly and rationally. I didn't come off as "I'm about to blow this thing wide open." We had a seminar today and I asked to speak to her after the seminar. (The teacher's best friend is also a student teacher and was in the room, so I have to be careful of what I say.) I told her, "I just wanted to tell you about a potential conflict." I told her what was going on. I told her the teacher told me that she knew it was illegal and said she would continue to do so until someone speaks up. I am required to take over all the duties that the teacher performs within a few weeks. I told her in no uncertain terms, "I don't believe in prayer; I do not and will not pray. " Basically, she told me to not make a big fuss over it and to tell the teacher that I am uncomfortable with praying with the children. She said, "Just tell her you don't believe in praying in public because lots of people don't do that." I said, "I don't believe in prayer at all." She said, "Well, you don't have to get into all that; just tell her it makes you uncomfortable and you would rather her lead them in prayer. If she has a problem with it, I'll speak to her about it."

I'm not going to just say, "I'm uncomfortable with it and I'd rather you lead them in prayer." The truth is I'd rather her not lead them in prayer and I'm more than just "uncomfortable" with it; I am deadset against it. So I plan on saying something along the lines of, "I won't be leading the students in prayer." I'll also try to record it if possible. I probably won't do anything with it for a few years, but after I'm secure in my position, who knows where the tape might end up.

Oh yeah, I believe the teacher may have seen my bumper stickers today when I was leaving the school. So she might have an idea that I'm a heathen.

beejay--yes, I'm student teaching in Mississippi. I spoke to two other student teachers about it. They both said their schools do the same thing!!!! I believe this thing is bigger than what I thought. I'm a member of both AU and the ACLU, so I may just try something like that (totally anonymous, of course!)

RufusAtticus

Seriously, you shouldn't bring up the issue until it is your turn to lead them in prayer. At which point you could just not do it, or lead them in a prayer to the virgin mary or mother earth. Perhaps the teacher needs to learn a lesson as to why teachers need to not do such a thing. If she complains to you, then you will have a perfect oppurtinity to explain why it is wrong to lead students in prayer, aka you don't pray over my kids, I won't pray over yours.

Or you could use your opportunity to teach the children a civics lesson:

"Now kids your teacher usually prays for you at this time. But it is wrong for her to do so. It is not wrong for you to say your own blessing and if your family says a blessing at home, I will give you a moment of silence to say one to your self right now."

Viti

I wouldn't bring any personal "comfortable/uncomfortable" feelings into it. I'd say, "Leading students in prayer is illegal and unsconstitional". This is a simple, factual statement and not confrontational. Carry a tape recorder or video cam with you at all times (appropriate as a student teacher I should think). I think anyone would think twice about threatening you or slandering you if you have proff they are doing so illegaly.

DMB

Pensee: your supervisor's reaction seems pretty shocking: no consideration of the illegality, but treating it merely as a matter of personal choice or conviction.

hezekiah jones

Originally posted by LadyShea :
"I wouldn't bring any personal 'comfortable/uncomfortable' feelings into it. I'd say, 'Leading students in prayer is illegal and unconstitutional.' This is a simple, factual statement and not confrontational."

Yep, that's all there is to it.

Jayjay

Well, since they already admitted being aware that it's illegal, you shouldn't really have to say anything. "I won't do it" is already enough in my opinion. As for an alternative, it should be either no prayer at all, or a moment of silence with something like "you can say grace silently to yourself if you want, but you don't have to if you don't want to". The kids will probably be interested in noticing a change in daily routines, and accompanied with an explanation it might actually make them think about what saying grace really means...

Anyway, leading the kids to saying "thank you our dark lord Lucifer for this feast" or something like that just to give the other instructors a lesson is a bad, baaaad idea. Children shouldn't be used like that.

pug846

Okay, I can’t be the only one thinking this: What the fuck? Is this THAT big of a deal? I can’t believe some of the things I’m reading here. If someone were to read this thread and not know what the teacher did, you would assume that she raped a child or something. Video camera? Using the kids to somehow get back at the teacher(!!!)? What the hell?!

I mean, come the fuck on people. Clearly, the practice needs to stop, so don’t preach to the choir that teacher led prayer in a public school is illegal, blah blah. Aren’t some of you just blowing this a tad out of proportion? How about sitting down with the teacher and explaining that you think she shouldn’t lead the children in prayer, not because it makes you feel uncomfortable, which is mostly irrelevant, but because it is illegal. She seems to realize this.

Or Christ, maybe I am the only one here who thinks most of these responses are crazy. *shrugs* At least some of you took a reasonable stance.

Grumpy

Kindergarten is a bad place for civics lessons. Apart from the difficulty of explaining the nuances of Establishment Clause jurisprudence, there's the matter of "Not In Front of the Children." Yes, teacher is wrong -- but you never tell little kids that teacher is wrong.

Rusting Car Bumper

It seems you let your opinion of prayer get mixed in with the ethical and legal problems with teachers leading prayer.

If I were you I would have plainly said that I won't do it because it is not only illegal but unethical. Leave your own opinion of prayer out of it.

DC