Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pensee · 01-07-2003, 02:56 PM

Today was my very first day as a student teacher. Once again, I'm in kindergarten. Once again, I find a church-state separation violation, but this one much, much more severe.

Everything's going grand, until right before lunch. All the kids were lined up, lunch boxes in hand, waiting to go to the cafeteria when the teacher said, "It's time for the blessing." I was like WTF???? Surely, she couldn't be leading these kids in prayers. Then she instructed all the kids to close their eyes and bow their heads. Then she led them in a prayer, "God is great; God is good. And we thank him for our food....Amen."

I was in shock. Then she turned to me and said, "I know it isn't legal, but we all do it. This is --- Elementary in ---County. The principal and superintendent both know that we all do it. In fact, the superintendent was in here one day when we prayed and until a parent makes a big fuss over it, we're going to keep on doing it."

I really couldn't believe what I was hearing. I was dumbfounded. For now, I'm keeping my mouth shut. I have to work with these people in order to graduate. After that, I need them for references to help me get a job. But, as SOON as I secure employment, you better believe that the state is going to get a little letter from me!!!!!!

GaryP · 01-07-2003, 04:33 PM

That is unbelievable! Especially since the kids are so young.

I surely understand your reluctance to say anything.

You might consider discreetly contacting the ACLU or Americans United.

They can contact the school system and tell them to knock it off without using your name.

Of course, if this is the only class that is doing it and you are the only new witness, perhaps you would be immediately suspected.

Amie · 01-07-2003, 04:42 PM

I am both a Christian and a teacher but prayer has absolutely no place in the public school system.

"I know it isn't legal"...creepy.

Toto · 01-07-2003, 05:07 PM

I remember that prayer, but then I was in school before Madalyn Murray O'Hair's lawsuit.

I suspect that the reason that the teachers cling to the prayer is that it is useful to have a little ritual before eating to settle yourself down. It improves the digestion and keeps order in the class.

It would help if there were a little secular ritual that could be used instead of that hackneyed prayer (which certainly did not keep me from becoming an atheist.)

openeyes · 01-07-2003, 09:33 PM

I'm sure if the teacher just needed a little ritual, she could think of something else. I'd be upset if one of my kids was in that class. Another example of the insidious promotion of religion.

RufusAtticus · 01-07-2003, 09:41 PM

Maybe you should try your own little experiment and offer to say the blessing one day. Make sure to include lots of references to "Mother Earth," "Allah," and "Satin."

Seriosuly though, the teacher could very well be lying. Contact the prinicpal and superintendent immediately. File a complaint with the your college and the ACLU.

dangin · 01-08-2003, 07:21 AM

You really need to get a tiny miniDV video recorder. They are super small now. or a larger handheld camera in your back pack and get that on film with a date stamp on the image. Record it multiple days so it can't be claimed to be a fluke. Send it to 20/20. Have some fun.

southernhybrid · 01-08-2003, 01:20 PM

That is the most shocking thing I've heard in a long time. You are between a rock and a hardplace. Would you feel comfortable bringing this up to your academic advisor? There must be someone at your school with enough integrity and balls to question this obviously illegal practice. What kind of example is a teacher who thumbs her nose at federal law like that? This is very disturbing. I'm sorry to hear you've been placed in such a difficult position.

Melkor · 01-08-2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin
You really need to get a tiny miniDV video recorder. They are super small now. or a larger handheld camera in your back pack and get that on film with a date stamp on the image. Record it multiple days so it can't be claimed to be a fluke. Send it to 20/20. Have some fun.

That's a tip-top idea.

Do keep us posted... Personally, I'd love to hear about that teacher out on her proselytizing ass.

And if she was telling the truth about the principal and superintendent, then I'd like even more to hear about someone bringing a civil suit against them, personally, and the department for which they both work, just to prove a point.

That kind of thing just burns me up....

Grumpy · 01-08-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pensee
I was in shock. Then she turned to me and said, "I know it isn't legal, but we all do it.

"But do you know why it's illegal?" That's what I would ask, by way of reinforcing the principle of freedom from religous coercion.

Or, you could teach the kindergarteners that it's okay to disobey rules you don't agree with.

01-07-2003, 02:56 PM	#1
Pensee Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: florida Posts: 657	Witnessed teacher-led prayer in public school today Today was my very first day as a student teacher. Once again, I'm in kindergarten. Once again, I find a church-state separation violation, but this one much, much more severe. Everything's going grand, until right before lunch. All the kids were lined up, lunch boxes in hand, waiting to go to the cafeteria when the teacher said, "It's time for the blessing." I was like WTF???? Surely, she couldn't be leading these kids in prayers. Then she instructed all the kids to close their eyes and bow their heads. Then she led them in a prayer, "God is great; God is good. And we thank him for our food....Amen." I was in shock. Then she turned to me and said, "I know it isn't legal, but we all do it. This is --- Elementary in ---County. The principal and superintendent both know that we all do it. In fact, the superintendent was in here one day when we prayed and until a parent makes a big fuss over it, we're going to keep on doing it." I really couldn't believe what I was hearing. I was dumbfounded. For now, I'm keeping my mouth shut. I have to work with these people in order to graduate. After that, I need them for references to help me get a job. But, as SOON as I secure employment, you better believe that the state is going to get a little letter from me!!!!!!

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01-07-2003, 04:33 PM	#2
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	That is unbelievable! Especially since the kids are so young. I surely understand your reluctance to say anything. You might consider discreetly contacting the ACLU or Americans United. They can contact the school system and tell them to knock it off without using your name. Of course, if this is the only class that is doing it and you are the only new witness, perhaps you would be immediately suspected.

01-07-2003, 04:42 PM	#3
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	I am both a Christian and a teacher but prayer has absolutely no place in the public school system. "I know it isn't legal"...creepy.

01-07-2003, 05:07 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I remember that prayer, but then I was in school before Madalyn Murray O'Hair's lawsuit. I suspect that the reason that the teachers cling to the prayer is that it is useful to have a little ritual before eating to settle yourself down. It improves the digestion and keeps order in the class. It would help if there were a little secular ritual that could be used instead of that hackneyed prayer (which certainly did not keep me from becoming an atheist.)

01-07-2003, 09:33 PM	#5
openeyes Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota Posts: 4,215	I'm sure if the teacher just needed a little ritual, she could think of something else. I'd be upset if one of my kids was in that class. Another example of the insidious promotion of religion.

01-07-2003, 09:41 PM	#6
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Maybe you should try your own little experiment and offer to say the blessing one day. Make sure to include lots of references to "Mother Earth," "Allah," and "Satin." Seriosuly though, the teacher could very well be lying. Contact the prinicpal and superintendent immediately. File a complaint with the your college and the ACLU.

01-08-2003, 07:21 AM	#7
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	You really need to get a tiny miniDV video recorder. They are super small now. or a larger handheld camera in your back pack and get that on film with a date stamp on the image. Record it multiple days so it can't be claimed to be a fluke. Send it to 20/20. Have some fun.

01-08-2003, 01:20 PM	#8
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	That is the most shocking thing I've heard in a long time. You are between a rock and a hardplace. Would you feel comfortable bringing this up to your academic advisor? There must be someone at your school with enough integrity and balls to question this obviously illegal practice. What kind of example is a teacher who thumbs her nose at federal law like that? This is very disturbing. I'm sorry to hear you've been placed in such a difficult position.

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