garsy

Speechless wrote
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Ummm... those 'Christian' ethics have been around for thousands of years before Christianity. The only thing the Abrahamic religions added was lots of sexual repression.
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Accepted. It is usefull to remember that such 'Christian' ethics were around prior to Christianity, although Christianity has for so long laid claim to them, or to be fair, borrowed them that they have become Christian thinking.

-RRH-

Defining who is an atheist is easier than defining who is a Christian. For example, if you find someone who believes that Jesus was the son of God, and died for our sins, etc. you might think this person is a Christian. But as soon as it is revealed that this person condones child prostitution, 9 out of 10 Christians will insist he/she cannot be a true Christian.

But if that person believes that God does not exist, many atheists will call him/her an immoral bastard, but you will not hear a lot of atheists argue that his/her stance on child prostitution means he/she can't be a real atheist.

But, honestly, without the God element, it isn't Christian, now is it?

Equating "Christian" with "moral" makes the definition of both more confusing. Atheists do not try to equate "atheist" with "moral" and so have less reason to be confused.

beyelzu

unlike many atheists that i have met i do think all atheists are amoral, not immoral, amoral. i view morality as god given. or perhaps codified objective value judgments. instead i think atheist have eithics, or rules to live by which are often situational or subjective. i have found that in my personal life i do tend to hang out with other atheists or at least non religious people. i am politically conservative on many issues so i do have a couple of republican and religious friends, but for the most part i do not. it can be very difficult for a strong atheist(meaning one who asserts that there is no god) to get along with christians. its not just the seemingly endless preaching, but non christians get offended when i make fun of god, even if i am not talking to them at that time.

i do not come to this site just because there is a forum. rather i come here because i know that i will read many intelligent comments, often times insightful. and i know this because this site is for non theists.

also it can be tiring to constantly argue with theists. i do feel responsible in some ways to fight against the christian preachers. if only to show other people who might be quesitoning there faith that it is possible to live a fulfilled life and be an atheist. but sometimes its just too tiring.

garsy

RRH said
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But, honestly, without the God element, it isn't Christian, now is it?

Equating "Christian" with "moral" makes the definition of both more confusing. Atheists do not try to equate "atheist" with "moral" and so have less reason to be confused.
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A very good point. What I wanted to do was remain in the arena of morality that, when applied properly, works. After all, the Nazis tried to create a morality of their own, with known disastrous results.
By keeping in the tradition of Christianity, a tradition which predates Christianity, I was keeping to a tried and tested method of ethics which mankind has worked through too. Yet it is important to keep a distinction between HOW Christians read morality and what morality means for mankind outside of Christian belief.

Beyelzu wrote
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unlike many atheists that i have met i do think all atheists are amoral, not immoral, amoral. i view morality as god given. or perhaps codified objective value judgments. instead i think atheist have eithics, or rules to live by which are often situational or subjective. i have found that in my personal life i do tend to hang out with other atheists or at least non religious people. i am politically conservative on many issues so i do have a couple of republican and religious friends, but for the most part i do not. it can be very difficult for a strong atheist(meaning one who asserts that there is no god) to get along with christians. its not just the seemingly endless preaching, but non christians get offended when i make fun of god, even if i am not talking to them at that time.
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quote: '... I do think all atheists are amoral....'
Do you? I just wouldn't know. This would make a very interesting poll if some one would care to take this up...?

Personally, I am a moral atheist. In fact, I doubt that any one can live without a world order view of right and wrong, even in a most fundamental and limited way. (before you all say it, yes that world order view COULD be just what an individual supposes within the confines of his little world experience). That is why what I claimed as Christian morality, risking the possibility of confusion as RRH rightly pointed out, is one that is valid for an atheist because it is inclusive of a standard and way of living that is proven to be of worth and value for the holder and for mankind, too.


Ethics is more 'the philosophical study of human conduct and of the rules and principles that ought to govern it.'
Ethic = a moral principle or set of moral values held by an individual or group.

quote: 'i view morality as god given. or perhaps codified objective value judgments.'

I am not quite sure what you mean here. I assume that you do not believe in God, so what or rather who exactly was morality given by? Or perhaps you mean to separate that morality held by believers from that held by atheists...? Which is an important distinction.

As for hanging out with people of our own persuasion, that is true often enough for all of us. Although, by joining, say, clubs and associations one can have a diverse set of friends with a common interest, despite their religious beliefs.

beyelzu

well, philosophically, i lean towards objectivism. i think that much of judeochristian morality is flawed and i reject it. i am an atheist, so i do not really think that morality is god given. but i do think that there is little bend in morality. the biggest flaw in judeochristian morality is that it teaches that selfishness is bad and that altruism is good. i think that they have the positions reversed. atruism is evil, it teaches the worthlessness of self, it makes much more sense when allied with a god. i do not think a metaphysical naturalist or any right think atheist needs altruism. furthermore the teachings found against selfishness are there because man is worthless in the eyes of god.

i prefer the term ethical atheist to moral atheist because of the connotations that i feel morality has. perhaps, i feel this way because so often morality is claimed by the clergy and christians.

garsy

Well, I would tremble to reverse this -- in so much as man does not know himself adequately enough to govern his basic urges and emotions and thus to be 'given' such a tenet.
I do however, agree with you that the centuries of teaching of self denial is and has been harmful.
True selflessness arises from a knowledge and acceptance of the self.

I would see an ethical atheist as one who questions the morality of a given action or belief. A moral atheist I feel to be some one who has embraced an ethical outlook and practices it.
Maybe a small difference, but it is one I perceive