Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-07-2003, 03:23 PM

I didn't look carefully. The coins do not mention Festus, AFAIK, but are from the era when he was appointed by Nero.

Generally, the appearance of a character in Josephus is taken as proof of their existence, since Josephus did not have a motive to make up the names of Roman governors. The writer of Acts probably read Josephus.

When Christian propagandists invent people, they generally give them names that indicate the meaning they are trying to convey, such as Lydia.

The author of Acts did not mention Malta. Later investigators looked around and found an island that seemed to match the characteristics that Acts describes, and Malta was the second island they picked. You can find more details if you read the prior thread and the links there. Islands in general tend not to have poisonous snakes.

Toto · 06-07-2003, 03:33 PM

Geoff - if you are going to get into compass bearings, look at

http://www.parsagard.com/paul@malta.htm

A seaman has retraced the journey and says that it makes sense.

I don't have the nautical expertise to evaluate this evidence.

Geoff Hudson · 06-08-2003, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
I didn't look carefully. The coins do not mention Festus, AFAIK, but are from the era when he was appointed by Nero.

Generally, the appearance of a character in Josephus is taken as proof of their existence, since Josephus did not have a motive to make up the names of Roman governors. The writer of Acts probably read Josephus.

It is as I suspected. The sellers of the coins assume that the extant text about Festus in Josephus is accurate.

The editors of Josephus were free to what they liked, because there was no independent evidence to challenge them. The editors could have had a motive to invent Festus, as I think they did in Acts and Josephus.

Geoff

Geoff Hudson · 06-08-2003, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Geoff - if you are going to get into compass bearings, look at

http://www.parsagard.com/paul@malta.htm

A seaman has retraced the journey and says that it makes sense.

I don't have the nautical expertise to evaluate this evidence.

I have read the on-line short extract about "Paul's" shipwreck by Jefferson White. He makes a glaring error when he regards a ship that is supposed to be travelling west as "drifting" when the wind is from the north-east. You don't need to be a sailor to understand that.

Geoff

Haran · 06-08-2003, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
When Christian propagandists invent people, they generally give them names that indicate the meaning they are trying to convey, such as Lydia.

Toto, you seem to always take the most extreme positions when it comes to the veracity of the Bible.

Anyways, nearly everyone's name had some meaning back then. It also appears that sometimes people were given meaningful nicknames that they kept. So, it is not unusual to find a name with meaning (e.g. the name Peter/Cephas being recorded after his name was changed).

So, Lydia is just a figment of the author's imagination, huh? Why is the name a problem? The name can mean 'beautiful' or it could simply be that they were referring to her in some colloquial fashion as the 'woman from Lydia'. Did you read something somewhere that lead you to believe this is a problem? What did they say? I'm curious.

What are the other examples of your generalization?

Geoff Hudson · 06-08-2003, 08:28 AM

I found this in the data base on Acts of that well known swedish skollah Ffoeg Nodsuh - its a Haran special:

(27)When two years had passed, [Felix] {Seneca} was succeeded {as Consul} by [Porcius Festus] {Nero}, but because [Felix] {Seneca} wanted to grant a favour to [the Jews] {James}, he left [Paul] {him} in [prison] {the palace}.

Chapter 25

THE TRIAL BEFORE NERO

(1)Three days after arriving [in the province] {at the Consulship � Nero�s second in 57CE}, [Festus] {Nero} went
[up from Caesarea to Jerusalem] {to the Senate},

(2)where the [chief priests] {Senators} and [the teachers of the law] {lawyers} appeared before him and presented the charges against [Paul] {James}.

Toto · 06-08-2003, 12:31 PM

Haran - That example is from Helms Who Wrote the Gospels, p. 87-89:

Quote:

Given Luke's pattern of male/female pairs, if Peter is to be prepared by a vision to go to Philippi to convert the Gentile Cornelius, so must Paul be summoned in a vision to go to Philippi to convert the Gentile Lydia. Luke seems to have known that Paul approved and supported female heads of house-churches, but [aLuke] had not read Paul's Letter to the Philippians and so did not know that the female leaders of the church in Philippi were in fact named Euodia and Syntyche -- the only women Paul mentions in this letter, written soon after his misisonary visit to that city (see Phil 4.2). . .

One more point: if the female leaders of the church at Philippi were really named Euodia and Syntyche (Phil 4:2), why does Luke chose the name "Lydia"? That was the land of wealth, of the rich king Croesus. In the ancient world, "Lydian" was a by-word for riches: indeed, "lydopathes" meant "wealthy as a Lydian", and "Lydia lithos," "stone of Lydia," was a stone used to test gold. Throughout the book of Acts, Luke stresses that it was "women of standing" who accepted the Christian message (Acts 13:50), "influential women" along with "godfearing Gentiles" who responded to Paul's preaching (Acts 17:4) Lydia, as a dealer in extremely expensive "purple fabric" (dyed with color extracted from murex and affordable only by the wealthy), was well-off, and head of a household (and thus widowed or unmarried like Martha in Luke's Gospel who invited Jesus into her home): for her entire "household with her" were baptized, following her lead (Acts 16:15) "Lydia" is thus the ideal name for the kind of woman Luke describes as becoming Gentile Christians. . . .

Helms goes on to trace the symbolism behind Dorcas (based on word play) and Eutychus ("Lucky", based on a Homeric story.)

If you think that people were given meaningful nicknames that they kept, what do you think Paul's name was originally? Acts starts out with Saul, a name never mentioned in Paul's writings, although Paul does claim to be of the tribe of Benjamin. In Acts 13, Saul meets a Roman proconsul named Sergius Paulus, and the text notes that "Saul's name was also Paul." Saul is then replaced by Paul for the rest of Acts, with no explanation. Paul moves on to the next scene and gives a long speech that mentions Saul, the first king of Israel who came from the tribe of Benjamin, but was replaced by David. There's lots of symbolism here, but I can't see any rationale.

Geoff Hudson · 06-08-2003, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Hudson

(27)When two years had passed, [Felix] {Seneca} was succeeded {as Consul} by [Porcius Festus] {Nero}, but because [Felix] {Seneca} wanted to grant a favour to [the Jews] {James}, he left [Paul] {him} in [prison] {the palace}.

Chapter 25

THE TRIAL BEFORE NERO

(1)Three days after arriving [in the province] {at the Consulship � Nero�s second in 57CE?}, [Festus] {Nero} went
[up from Caesarea to Jerusalem] {to the Senate},

(2)where the [chief priests] {Senators} and [the teachers of the law] {lawyers} appeared before him and presented the charges against [Paul] {James}.

Nero was also Consul in 60 CE. This would fit better with the time when James is said to have been killed in 62 CE.

Who was Consul in the two years previous to 60 CE?

Geoff

Toto · 06-09-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Hudson
I have read the on-line short extract about "Paul's" shipwreck by Jefferson White. He makes a glaring error when he regards a ship that is supposed to be travelling west as "drifting" when the wind is from the north-east. You don't need to be a sailor to understand that.

Geoff

Here is another criticism of White, from Ken Olson:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/message/12847

Quote:

What I find most interesting about the story in Acts is what happens when we compare Paul's voyage to that of an average ship that was *not* caught in a storm. Casson reconstructs the usual course of Egyptian grain ships sailing to Rome as including a leg from Crete to Malta (Casson 1950, 49-50). In another work, he provides tables of the speeds which ancient ships made under sail on various recorded voyages. The examples most comparable to the Crete-to-Malta trip are two voyages from the western Greek island of Zacynthus to Sicily, both stated to have been undertaken in light winds.

One of these was a voyage of 391 miles over 12.5 days at an average speed of 1.3 mph. The other was a voyage of 368 miles over 15.5 days at 1 mph (Casson 1971, 294). Paul's voyage of 476.6 miles over 14 days at 1.42 mph is quite comparable.

Perhaps the most miraculous thing about the story in Acts 27-28 is that, despite storm and shipwreck, the ship Paul is sailing on still makes it to what was presumably its intended destination in about the usual time it would take to get there.

Toto · 06-09-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Hudson
Nero was also Consul in 60 CE. This would fit better with the time when James is said to have been killed in 62 CE.

Who was Consul in the two years previous to 60 CE?

Geoff

Timeline

180. REIGN OF NERO.
55
Nero consul. Pallas ceases to be minister of finance, and is succeeded by Claudius Etruscus. Dissension between Nero and his mother. Britannicus poisoned. Seneca's De Clementia (dedicated to Nero).
56
Seneca consul. The quaestores aerarii replaced by praefecti aerarii, nominated by the emperor.
58
Active operations against Parthia. The emperor proposes to abolish all uectigalia, but is dissuaded.
59
Murder of Agrippina. Success of Corbulo in Armenia. Suetonius Paullinus legate in Britain.
60
Festus succeeds Felix in Judaea.
61
Vespasian consul, Capture of Mona by Paullinus. Great rising of Iceni (under Boadicea) and Trinobantes. Camalodunum burnt; Londinium and Verulamium captured by insurgents. Great slaughter of Romans and their allies. Victory of Paullinus, and suicide of Boadicea.
62
War with Parthia continued. Death of Burrus. Tigellinus becomes Prefect of the Praetorians, with a colleague. Divorce and murder of Octauia. Nero marries Poppaea. Death of Persius.

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06-07-2003, 03:23 PM	#21
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I didn't look carefully. The coins do not mention Festus, AFAIK, but are from the era when he was appointed by Nero. Generally, the appearance of a character in Josephus is taken as proof of their existence, since Josephus did not have a motive to make up the names of Roman governors. The writer of Acts probably read Josephus. When Christian propagandists invent people, they generally give them names that indicate the meaning they are trying to convey, such as Lydia. The author of Acts did not mention Malta. Later investigators looked around and found an island that seemed to match the characteristics that Acts describes, and Malta was the second island they picked. You can find more details if you read the prior thread and the links there. Islands in general tend not to have poisonous snakes.

06-07-2003, 03:33 PM	#22
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Geoff - if you are going to get into compass bearings, look at http://www.parsagard.com/paul@malta.htm A seaman has retraced the journey and says that it makes sense. I don't have the nautical expertise to evaluate this evidence.

06-08-2003, 08:28 AM	#26
Geoff Hudson Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK Posts: 318	I found this in the data base on Acts of that well known swedish skollah Ffoeg Nodsuh - its a Haran special: (27)When two years had passed, [Felix] {Seneca} was succeeded {as Consul} by [Porcius Festus] {Nero}, but because [Felix] {Seneca} wanted to grant a favour to [the Jews] {James}, he left [Paul] {him} in [prison] {the palace}. Chapter 25 THE TRIAL BEFORE NERO (1)Three days after arriving [in the province] {at the Consulship � Nero�s second in 57CE}, [Festus] {Nero} went [up from Caesarea to Jerusalem] {to the Senate}, (2)where the [chief priests] {Senators} and [the teachers of the law] {lawyers} appeared before him and presented the charges against [Paul] {James}.

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