Alonzo Fyfe

Me? I hope not. That would be a royal waste of time.

But I honestly do see little value in a moral principle that everybody can agree to simply because it is a tautology -- and a tautology can never be false.

Like "improve oneself and one's society."

In every debate, everybody on both sides thinks that they are improving themselves and their society. Whether they are for capital punishment or against it. For legalized abortion or against it. For prayer in public school or against it. They are all for or against it because they think that it is necessary to 'improve oneself and one's society."

Ashcroft is really convinced that he is making society better.

So, it doesn't really help anybody to decide when they are doing right or when they are doing wrong -- unless you specify something about what counts as an improvement.

(Note: Actually, one of the tests that I use in evaluating a principle is I ask, "Would Hitler agree with this?" If the answer is "yes," then the principle does not have much value.)

So, in place of "improving oneself and society" I would say something about "exercising my mind and body, and working to encourage and ensure the opportunity for others to do the same."

Now, it will take a whole lot of twisted thinking for a Hitler or Saddam to fit their actions into this principle.

Alonzo Fyfe

I have actually been doing this for quite some time.

When I was in high school, I decided that I wanted to dedicate myself to making the world a better place.

Then I asked myself, "What would make the world a 'better place'? Didn't Hitler think he was making the world a better place? Weren't the Crusades fought and Inquisitions launched by people thinking that they were making the world a 'better place'?"

This question drove me through 12 years of college studying ethics and value theory. I have given this issue a LOT of thought.

My questions about these principles simply travel along the same road. I really can't find much use for a principle that says, "make the world a better place." I want a principle that tells me something about what this "better place" is.

So, obviously, I think this is a worthwhile project.

(And, well, yes, I think the 10 Commandments are mostly vacant tautologies. I said as much in an earlier post. Which is one of the reasons that I dislike them as a moral code -- they provide no real guidance.)

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

Buffman

ybnormal

Dandy post. Stimulating read. I love to look at things from as many angles as possible. IMO, by examining as many options/alternatives as possible ahead of time, one is better prepared to stand behind their final decision. What better place than these forums to tap into the creative thoughts of so many independent minds?

As in If they are against your list, then they are against the Constitution of the United States.

Does that make ANY sense?

Your entire post made sense to me. I have always hated labels. (Haven't you noticed how many different ones I am using to describe the "Godless?" That's intentional.) Labels are little more than one person's lazy attempt to "pigeonhole" another person so the first person won't have to listen and think as hard if they label the other person. Normally it is an attempt to paint someone with a less than positive image. (I think that made some sense.)

I guess that I could be labeled a Constitutionalist.--- Is the Constitution a perfect document. Good golly, no! However, it allows for periodic self-correction/improvement. I also believe it to be one of the finest critically analyzed and reasoned documents ever created from the mind of Man. It would be a gross understatement to say that I am only in awe of those who contributed to its creation.

If you go back to my first personal attempt at a list, I think you will find us to be on the identical page when it comes to hoping that overly zealous religious types would speak out against that original list, and in so doing, against the very Constitution and Bill of Rights that has been the major factor in allowing America to emerge for the internecine, bloody and brutal, religious squabbling found throughout most of history.

And as an aside, I sense some need to rush to completion, and just wanted to ask, "What's the real rush?" This is something, IMO, which could take some serious time to gather proper input and momentum, if you will. Some folks just don't think fast.

Unfortunately, by the very nature of these forums, the half-life of most strings is hardly more than a few days at the most. And as you accurately point out, this is not similar to an "Elvis" sighting or a crying blood statue of the Virgin(?)Mary as a drawing card. Keeping this issue before the largest number of potential contributors has become a very daunting and time constrained task.

You are quite correct. This is not something that should be forced or rushed. But hell! I'm not yet totally convinced that it is even possible to draft a worthwhile list. (Research how the actual Bill of Rights came into existence and you will see what I mean.) However, I can see so many positive aspects growing from it, if something could be developed, that I am loathe to simply drop it for lack of participation/support.

Buffman

Alfonso Fyfe

I have actually been doing this for quite some time.

Care to share any conclusions?

I hope you received my e-mail letter to your dad. Assuming that you did, you should have some insights into why I am interested in developing some useful weapons to use in this war for the minds of the masses.

Looking inside oneself can become very honest and instructive when one's priorities are suddenly reduced to what it takes to live or die...or to control the life and death of others. That's about as basic as it gets for someone with a biology and military background. There is only one meaningful "family value." Kill or be killed.

In the Maslowian Paradigm, morality and ethics are suddenly knocked from the higher levels of endeavor right into the basement...Survival. That has always been the Achilles Heel for the true Christian. However, it has seldom entered the value system of the overly zealous fundamentalist Christian any more than it does the fundamentalist Muslim. Slaughtering humans is so much easier when done in the name of some make-believe supernatural entity. Justifications seem to be only a sacred page away.---That's why I believe that it is important to offer something far more meaningful/practical on our potential list than simply "Thou shalt not kill."

Alonzo Fyfe

I thought that is what I was doing?

Anyway, ultimately my own "personal code" does not break down into principles all that much. It would go something like this:

The time between life and death is the only time we have to enjoy the companionship of our friends, the closeness of our family, the company of our neighbors, and the wonder of the world around us.

I cannot comfort myself with the idea that whatever suffering I may introduce into somebody else's life, or whatever suffering I may fail to prevent -- whether caused by nature or caused by another person -- will be erased or counterbalanced in some sort of underlife. It is a tragedy that cannot be reversed.

So, I resolve to stand against those causes of suffering -- both natural and human caused. To arm those potential victims and myself with the ability to defend ourselves, through knowledge, wisdom, pride (though not arrogance), and courage.

And if harm must be done, to prevent a greater evil, I will look twice for a better alternative, and do only the minimum harm necessary. I will not celebrate that harm, though I may stand rrelieved that a greater harm has been avoided.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

Buffman

I thought that is what I was doing?

No, not really! You have been sharing your opinions about the offerings of others...and they were/are most welcome. That's why, based on your information about having had 12 years of advanced, formal education, training in ethics, I wondered if you had already arrived at your own set of personal guidelines and if you would be willing to share them publicly. You have now done that. They are most appreciated and helpful.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Alonzo Fyfe

Well, as long as you don't think that 12 years of study can be reduced to 4 paragraphs without some distortion and ommission.

Buffman

GaryP

I just wanted to remark that your lists remind me a lot of the "LifeSkills" we use at my elementary school.

I agree. They are not that dissimilar.--- I hope no one will be offended by the candor of my opinions. However, humans are born as undomesticated, omnivorous, wild animals. They must be nourished and protected while being taught, trained, and conditioned on how to survive within their environment and social groupings. On whom does this responsibility fall? What data base is utilized for guidance. Are all data bases identical? If not, are there at least some identical commonalities among them? I believe that there are. These are the items which I seek to identify and express, without the promise of any reward or threat of any punishment, based solely on accurate knowledge, personal observations and critical reasoning.

We give kids coupons which can be redeemed for little awards.

This manner of instructional technique is more revealing about human nature because we know that it works for all ages in both individual and group settings. However, does it not set the early foundation of a reward and punishment system? A system that reaches its ultimate expression in the reward (eternal life) and punishment (eternal damnation) philosophy of the major religious sects? Isn't everything else dealing with religion merely the mechanics of how to reach the supernatural reward and avoid the punishment?

They get the coupons for following one of the Life skills, i. e., honesty, integrity, responsibility, initiative, curiosity, perseverance, friendship, compassion, cooperation, trustworthiness, and I'm drawing a blank but there are a couple more.

(Look out! Here it comes!) What have any of those things got to do with survival? (Perhaps initiative, curiosity and perseverance could be argued as having contributing roles in direct survival, but they are not taught for that purpose.) That is where the last six Commandments have a more direct relationship with (appeal for) individual survival that contribute to the ultimate supernatural reward/punishment beliefs. For any non-religious list to have an equal or more powerful appeal, it should, if possible, automatically trigger an immediate reward/punishment series of images and responses in the human mind. (Sort of the "A-hah" type feeling that normally accompanies the sudden clarity of awareness/enlightenment.) It appears to me that the Life Skills program is indoctrinating children in a social survival program. But if the schools don't do this, who will? In the past, it was the direct responsibility of the parents and community-at-large to provide this social conditioning. The schools merely acted as reinforcing agents of the parents. Fortunately everyone seemed to be on the same page. Unfortunately, today, parents and schools don't even seem to be using the same book...yet the public school system is being accused of failing. That's more fundamentalist, and vested interest, propaganda hogwash. IMHO, that is one reason that the fundamentalists are so quick to revert to the only book that they think they know...the supernatural teachings of the Bible...for all the answers about everything...including the natural world.

I think a lot of schools are doing this type of thing. Possibly from pressure from fundamentalists who claim schools are going to pot.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I do not feel that the complaints of the fundamentalist are devoid of merit. Some inner city schools are in serious decline...for a plethora of very real problems. Additionally, American public, primary and secondary, education went through a period of social engineering experimentation because of far left administrative leaders attempting to promote their individual socio-political agendas which were based primarily on sincere environmental, racial concerns, and not to a small degree, self-aggrandizement. The mainstream classroom teacher was caught-up in this struggle between administrative rules and growing parental dissatisfactions. They were forced to shoulder the abuse of both groups leaving them little time to do what they loved most to do...educate their students. Today, they, rather than the traditional groups, are being forced to condition (domesticate) the wild animals in order to be able to teach (educate) them on what they will need (reading, writing, critical thinking skills, etc.) to survive in the real world. So when the fundamentalists point to the importance of the family unit, IMHO, they are making a valid observation concerning responsibility.---So what has any of this got to do with the primary subject of this string?

But the result seems to be a better school atmosphere. We have done it for 3 years now and none of the teachers want to quit

This is the reason why I believe that your info and this string are interrelated. Religious fundamentalists want the 10 Commandments posted because they sincerely believe that these Commandments will contribute positively to the success of any kind of Life Skills program. Obviously I totally disagree with that belief. I go even further and claim that the 10 Commandments being posted in public buildings, besides being a direct violation of the intent of the 1st Amendment, are actually divisive and make the accurate education of everyones' children all the more difficult. That is why I have been seeking a list of more pertinent principles with which to counter the deleterious effects of specific religious dogmas, but that will provide the kind of social tools (mechanisms) necessary for survival in the current age/environment.

Your lists could have much greater impact than the 10C's. ALL can relate to the virtues you are listing or should be able too at least.

It isn't "my" list. It is "our" list. Humanity's list. I take you back to one of my opening remarks about identifying the "commonalities" within all human groups/societies. If we can identify these as our principles/goals/desired virtues/ways to prosper in peace and harmony while accepting responsibility/etc., then they will have the power to expose the 10 Commandments for exactly what they are...the ravings of a jealous and murderous supernatural God of an ancient wandering tribe of fundamentally illiterate humans.

And how could I give a coupon to a kid for not coveting his neighbor's ass?

I will consult with former President Clinton and get back to you.

CaptainDave

The most basic life philosophy of a free-thinker is this: Do what ever to hell you want as long as you don't injure others in the process. Maybe this is all we need. It just needs to expressed in such a way that it is not a mere tautology (see Alonzo's recent prior posts in this thread).

Borrowing from Alonzo, here's how I would start it out:

The time between our birth and death is the only life we individuals surely have. In the interest of making that life the best it can be for both the individual and the larger human family, the following moral principles are proposed:

1. Every individual has a basic right to life, liberty and free-thought - subject to the following restrictions:

No person shall seek to deprive another of the same rights except when:

Need some suggestions to finish it!

oneofshibumi

As a Chicago Public Teacher I have used the Good Book and removed the Christian thinking that we all still carry in us. The Temple-State is a thought control system that has existed for thousands of years. We are all suffering from symptoms. Temple-State is a social disease that has existed since the beginning of Judaism, changing along with communities.

The answers have been around for years, but suppressed. The attack against humanism has been long. We can wait no longer. Survival of the Human species depends on using the answers that have been kept hidden by the Temple-State.

Hope you enjoy the read.

Am I crazy? Only one way to find out...

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: oneofshibumi ]</p>