Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 07-07-2002, 07:09 AM

Recently, I was trying to have a conversation with an intelligent Christian friend of mine. He is extremely fundie, but always courteous in discussion and allows me to speak my piece without interruptions and atheist-bashing.

My friend (Joseph) counts himself as a "good Christian" - someone who "doesn't judge" and is "openminded" while still sticking to the core of his faith - the Bible. He sees the Bible as the code of morality by which each Christian should read daily and lead his/her life by.

Here's the kicker - he considers "bad Christians" to be fundamentalists like Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps. I pointed out that these "baddies" do everything the "goodies" do - read the Bible, apply it's morality to their lives, and believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Joseph argued that they were not True Christians� because they "talked the talk but did not walk the walk." In my opinion, extremists like Falwell and Phelps are True Christians� - and in the purest sense. They are the only religious leaders who are truly doing what the Bible says - they are living their lives as closely to the Bible as possible.

Joseph, of course, disagrees, saying that they are all Hell-bent heathens who will "fry the longest" - but I guess it all depends on what makes a Christian a Christian. I was always under the impression that a Christian is one that believes in Christ and has "accepted Him into their heart" to be their personal Saviour. In my opinion, a Christian is a Christian - I think the good comes with the bad, and that it's a cop-out to try and seperate yourself (as a Christian) from those you disagree with.

Perchance · 07-07-2002, 07:14 AM

If applied to non-belief, though, wouldn't this make it impossible for non-believers to separate themselves out from Stalin? Yes, we may disagree with his methods, but if he didn't believe gods existed, we have to regard him as a "brother-in-arms" anyway?

Or is there some difference between atheism and Christianity I'm missing here?

-Perchance.

Bree · 07-07-2002, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perchance:


Or is there some difference between atheism and Christianity I'm missing here?

IMO, yes - there is a difference, and that difference is a set code of morality and ethics. Christians have the Bible, which is supposedly the be-all and end-all of everything. The Bible is what every Christian has to follow, since the religion is built upon the teachings of Christ, and the Bible is the only place to find those teachings. Of course, there are also some "other" laws which Christ did not personally expound upon, but which are considered part of Christianity anyway (10 Commandments et cetera).

Since atheism isn't a religion, there is no universal dogma by which one is supposed to follow in order to be considered atheist. There is no secret book entitled "How to Be an Good Atheist."

Perchance · 07-07-2002, 07:55 AM

Would a world where every Christian followed the Bible explicitly be a good one, though?

I agree, it's distressing to see Christian hypocrisy about the Bible (and their trying to defend any interpretation they want as still "Biblical"), but I'm also hearetened by the "cafeteria" approach, where people pick and choose what they like from religion (or philosophy, if you want to move it out of the specifically religous arena). I think this moves people much closer to skepticism, since they must needs evaluate the parts of the system they like and choose those that meet their own standards.

-Perchance.

seebs · 07-07-2002, 08:16 AM

I think he has a point - it's pretty clear to me that Fred Phelps is *NOT* living according to the Bible, but according to his own prejudices. I mean, we all do that sometimes, no matter what our belief systems are, but it takes substantial tunnel vision to read the New Testament and come to the conclusion that cheering at funerals is appropriate.

Are they Christians? Most likely. That doesn't mean they're necessarily good people, just that they're forgiven for their mistakes. (A God who is able to forgive Fred Phelps, IMHO, has done a good job of showing omnipotence.)

I am disappointed by this thread, because I expected it to be "Good Christians vs. Bad Christians IN AN IRON CAGE!!!!", which would have been a lot more interesting. I wanna see Rev Joshua and Jerry Fallwell in spandex, beating the
crap out of each other on TV. I know which one I'd be rooting for.

bonduca · 07-07-2002, 08:23 AM

No way in hell do I want to see Rev. Falwell in spandex.

Bree · 07-07-2002, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs:

I think he has a point - it's pretty clear to me that Fred Phelps is *NOT* living according to the Bible, but according to his own prejudices.

You COULD argue that he is living according to the Bible. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin - and Phelps is spreading the word of God. You can't deny that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin punishable by death. Forget figurative translation arguments, the Bible says what the Bible says, no apologies.

Phelps' beliefs and heart are in the right place, his methods may not be agreeable, but he IS preaching the gospel.

Herein is the argument.

Anunnaki · 07-07-2002, 08:59 AM

Bree is 100% correct. The bible says what it says and thats that. Stop making excuses for it just becuase you don`t agree with some of it`s rules.

But what do I know since my loathing of this book of ancient war propaganda and utter rubbish makes me a lunatic just like Phelps. Right seebs?

cydonia · 07-07-2002, 09:48 AM

Actually, if your right hand causes you to sin, aren't you supposed to cut it off? Wouldn't that ensure True Christian� Status?

Oxidizing Material · 07-07-2002, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs:
I wanna see Rev Joshua ... in spandex

Why does this turn me on?

07-07-2002, 07:09 AM	#1
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Good Christians vs. Bad Christians Recently, I was trying to have a conversation with an intelligent Christian friend of mine. He is extremely fundie, but always courteous in discussion and allows me to speak my piece without interruptions and atheist-bashing. My friend (Joseph) counts himself as a "good Christian" - someone who "doesn't judge" and is "openminded" while still sticking to the core of his faith - the Bible. He sees the Bible as the code of morality by which each Christian should read daily and lead his/her life by. Here's the kicker - he considers "bad Christians" to be fundamentalists like Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps. I pointed out that these "baddies" do everything the "goodies" do - read the Bible, apply it's morality to their lives, and believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Joseph argued that they were not True Christians� because they "talked the talk but did not walk the walk." In my opinion, extremists like Falwell and Phelps are True Christians� - and in the purest sense. They are the only religious leaders who are truly doing what the Bible says - they are living their lives as closely to the Bible as possible. Joseph, of course, disagrees, saying that they are all Hell-bent heathens who will "fry the longest" - but I guess it all depends on what makes a Christian a Christian. I was always under the impression that a Christian is one that believes in Christ and has "accepted Him into their heart" to be their personal Saviour. In my opinion, a Christian is a Christian - I think the good comes with the bad, and that it's a cop-out to try and seperate yourself (as a Christian) from those you disagree with.

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07-07-2002, 07:14 AM	#2
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	If applied to non-belief, though, wouldn't this make it impossible for non-believers to separate themselves out from Stalin? Yes, we may disagree with his methods, but if he didn't believe gods existed, we have to regard him as a "brother-in-arms" anyway? Or is there some difference between atheism and Christianity I'm missing here? -Perchance.

07-07-2002, 07:55 AM	#4
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Would a world where every Christian followed the Bible explicitly be a good one, though? I agree, it's distressing to see Christian hypocrisy about the Bible (and their trying to defend any interpretation they want as still "Biblical"), but I'm also hearetened by the "cafeteria" approach, where people pick and choose what they like from religion (or philosophy, if you want to move it out of the specifically religous arena). I think this moves people much closer to skepticism, since they must needs evaluate the parts of the system they like and choose those that meet their own standards. -Perchance.

07-07-2002, 08:16 AM	#5
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I think he has a point - it's pretty clear to me that Fred Phelps is NOT living according to the Bible, but according to his own prejudices. I mean, we all do that sometimes, no matter what our belief systems are, but it takes substantial tunnel vision to read the New Testament and come to the conclusion that cheering at funerals is appropriate. Are they Christians? Most likely. That doesn't mean they're necessarily good people, just that they're forgiven for their mistakes. (A God who is able to forgive Fred Phelps, IMHO, has done a good job of showing omnipotence.) I am disappointed by this thread, because I expected it to be "Good Christians vs. Bad Christians IN AN IRON CAGE!!!!", which would have been a lot more interesting. I wanna see Rev Joshua and Jerry Fallwell in spandex, beating the crap out of each other on TV. I know which one I'd be rooting for.

07-07-2002, 08:23 AM	#6
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	No way in hell do I want to see Rev. Falwell in spandex.

07-07-2002, 08:59 AM	#8
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	Bree is 100% correct. The bible says what it says and thats that. Stop making excuses for it just becuase you don`t agree with some of it`s rules. But what do I know since my loathing of this book of ancient war propaganda and utter rubbish makes me a lunatic just like Phelps. Right seebs?

07-07-2002, 09:48 AM	#9
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Actually, if your right hand causes you to sin, aren't you supposed to cut it off? Wouldn't that ensure True Christian� Status?

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