Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ImGod · 10-11-2002, 10:22 AM

Do you think they will bring this up? My brother lived with his wife for a couple of years before they were married. Mom didn’t like it, but nobody brought it up as a conversation topic when we all got together.

If they bring it up as a dinner conversation you could just say, "I was nailing her before we lived together and thought I should move in before I got her pregnant. Pass the potatoes, please. So anyone else getting any?"

It might shut them up long enough to finish the meal.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: ImGod ]</p>

Jamie_L · 10-11-2002, 11:13 AM

My question to those who know the Bible better than I:

Do any of the references to marriage in the Bible actually define the term? That is, is there a description of what must transpire for a man and woman to be considered married in the eyes of God? Does it require a priest/minister? Does it require a ceremony? Does it require sacrificing animals? With no definition of what has to be done, no one can say that you haven't done it.

Furthermore, even if a ceremony is described and detailed, is that enough? What about people who go through the ceremony as required, but they don't love each other? If they aren't married in their hearts, can that be considered living in sin?

Jamie

K · 10-11-2002, 11:17 AM

Jamie:

I believe in the Bible that it was enough to kidnap a young girl from a neighboring nation and kill her entire family to be considered married to her. If it wasn't considered marriage, it was still sufficient grounds to have sex with her.

HelenM · 10-11-2002, 11:59 AM

jason, whatever you say I'd make sure it's ok with your girlfriend, since this is her family.

take care
Helen

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

jasonpiao · 10-11-2002, 01:19 PM

Honestly intended advice certainly.
However, I don't dictate to her how I think she should behave around my family, so why do I have to ask her for permission to defend my beliefs?
She knows I will be respectful, but she also knows they plan on grilling me. This does not seem very respectful to me. I am only seeking answers to questions/accusations that may come. Believe me, I will not be bringing this subject up. I will evade, dodge, politely decline, but I will not lie or submit to satisfy their hunger for control.

HelenM · 10-11-2002, 01:32 PM

I understand what you're saying, Jason. It's just that it might hurt your relationship with her if she is unhappy about the way you interact with her family. That's what I was thinking. And you don't really want that to happen, do you?

Maybe you could at least talk to her before Thanksgiving and get a sense of whether she has certain expectations about your behavior around her family. Then at least you could get it out in the open rather than finding out after the fact that she wasn't expecting you to behave at Thanksgiving, how you did behave.

People can be very weird about their relationships with their family-of-origin. They might complain to you about them but there still could be some loyalty or complex mixed feelings that would make it best for you to be a little careful about how you are, around them. (And about what you say to them, about their family) The last thing you want - I imagine - is to make her feel caught in the middle, as if it's either them or you.

I know I don't know anything about your specific relationship. So if none of this applies, well, so be it.

Helen

jasonpiao · 10-11-2002, 02:41 PM

You are absolutely right, and I am very careful not to place her in the middle.
We have talked about it, she has avoided the family dinner up till now for these very reasons. Not because she disagrees with me, but because she disagrees with her family's approach.

It is her family that pressures her and guilts her and says that she is doing wrong. She wants to be free of it, but obviously she cares about them as well. So she tries to walk the line, keep in touch without letting them dictate her life.

But I digress, back to the topic: They say we are living in sin. I say we are living a good life according to the very (contradictory) rules set by the god they believe in. They have no proof, just what they have been told. I say that if there were some sudden judgement day and 'Oh dear I've been wrong all along', we would be guilty of no crime deserving eternal damnation by a just and forgiving god who wants his creatures to live good lives. It is men who want to control, not gods. They supposedly have it.

never been there · 10-13-2002, 07:57 AM

jason, it sounds like you're going to be outed as a non-believer by the time this is out, so it's probably time to be the exemplar for all of us.

So if you get 'living in sin', you're going to have to bite the bullet and answer that you're not doing anything contrary to your own beliefs, and that you act towards their daughter with love and respect at all times.

'but the bible says...'
'I understand that you would of course feel that our living together isn't right, but your daughter is grown up now and is free to make her own decisions. I, for one, don't believe the bible is relevant to me.'

They just want to find some reason to believe that their darling daughter whom they raised in the ways of the lord was under your evil influence and will come back to the straight and narrow as soon as they can get her away from you. It's easier on them than having 'failed'. So be sympathetic, but like you said, don't submit.

I think Helen's right about quoting scripture - forget it. Do you believe the bible is true or not?

jasonpiao · 10-13-2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Do you believe the bible is true or not?

God no!

Liquidrage · 10-13-2002, 11:40 AM

The only problem I see, jasonpiao, with trying to use the Bible to justify (or to at least claim it doesn't clearly state what you are doing is wrong) your relationship is that by doing so you yourself accept the Bible as a moral standard even though you do not mean to.

I understand this isn't your purpose, but the Bible is of course an ambigous book. So the following could happen.

In-Law: "So, you know you are living in sin?"

You: "Acutally, the Bible says..."

In-Law: "Well, I am glad you accept the Bible as a moral standard"

You: "Well..ummm...errr"

In-Law: "Because it also says....."

You: "Well, ah...hmm"

In-Law: "See you in church next Sunday"

If you do not want to go down the road of presenting the Bible as amoral then I suggest you ignore the Bible completely even if baited and focus solely on love and respect.

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10-11-2002, 10:22 AM	#21
ImGod Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nebraska Posts: 6,264	Do you think they will bring this up? My brother lived with his wife for a couple of years before they were married. Mom didn’t like it, but nobody brought it up as a conversation topic when we all got together. If they bring it up as a dinner conversation you could just say, "I was nailing her before we lived together and thought I should move in before I got her pregnant. Pass the potatoes, please. So anyone else getting any?" It might shut them up long enough to finish the meal. [ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: ImGod ]</p>

10-11-2002, 11:13 AM	#22
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	My question to those who know the Bible better than I: Do any of the references to marriage in the Bible actually define the term? That is, is there a description of what must transpire for a man and woman to be considered married in the eyes of God? Does it require a priest/minister? Does it require a ceremony? Does it require sacrificing animals? With no definition of what has to be done, no one can say that you haven't done it. Furthermore, even if a ceremony is described and detailed, is that enough? What about people who go through the ceremony as required, but they don't love each other? If they aren't married in their hearts, can that be considered living in sin? Jamie

10-11-2002, 11:17 AM	#23
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Jamie: I believe in the Bible that it was enough to kidnap a young girl from a neighboring nation and kill her entire family to be considered married to her. If it wasn't considered marriage, it was still sufficient grounds to have sex with her.

10-11-2002, 11:59 AM	#24
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	jason, whatever you say I'd make sure it's ok with your girlfriend, since this is her family. take care Helen [ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

10-11-2002, 01:19 PM	#25
jasonpiao Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Victoria, B.C. Posts: 60	Honestly intended advice certainly. However, I don't dictate to her how I think she should behave around my family, so why do I have to ask her for permission to defend my beliefs? She knows I will be respectful, but she also knows they plan on grilling me. This does not seem very respectful to me. I am only seeking answers to questions/accusations that may come. Believe me, I will not be bringing this subject up. I will evade, dodge, politely decline, but I will not lie or submit to satisfy their hunger for control.

10-11-2002, 01:32 PM	#26
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	I understand what you're saying, Jason. It's just that it might hurt your relationship with her if she is unhappy about the way you interact with her family. That's what I was thinking. And you don't really want that to happen, do you? Maybe you could at least talk to her before Thanksgiving and get a sense of whether she has certain expectations about your behavior around her family. Then at least you could get it out in the open rather than finding out after the fact that she wasn't expecting you to behave at Thanksgiving, how you did behave. People can be very weird about their relationships with their family-of-origin. They might complain to you about them but there still could be some loyalty or complex mixed feelings that would make it best for you to be a little careful about how you are, around them. (And about what you say to them, about their family) The last thing you want - I imagine - is to make her feel caught in the middle, as if it's either them or you. I know I don't know anything about your specific relationship. So if none of this applies, well, so be it. Helen

10-11-2002, 02:41 PM	#27
jasonpiao Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Victoria, B.C. Posts: 60	You are absolutely right, and I am very careful not to place her in the middle. We have talked about it, she has avoided the family dinner up till now for these very reasons. Not because she disagrees with me, but because she disagrees with her family's approach. It is her family that pressures her and guilts her and says that she is doing wrong. She wants to be free of it, but obviously she cares about them as well. So she tries to walk the line, keep in touch without letting them dictate her life. But I digress, back to the topic: They say we are living in sin. I say we are living a good life according to the very (contradictory) rules set by the god they believe in. They have no proof, just what they have been told. I say that if there were some sudden judgement day and 'Oh dear I've been wrong all along', we would be guilty of no crime deserving eternal damnation by a just and forgiving god who wants his creatures to live good lives. It is men who want to control, not gods. They supposedly have it.

10-13-2002, 07:57 AM	#28
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	jason, it sounds like you're going to be outed as a non-believer by the time this is out, so it's probably time to be the exemplar for all of us. So if you get 'living in sin', you're going to have to bite the bullet and answer that you're not doing anything contrary to your own beliefs, and that you act towards their daughter with love and respect at all times. 'but the bible says...' 'I understand that you would of course feel that our living together isn't right, but your daughter is grown up now and is free to make her own decisions. I, for one, don't believe the bible is relevant to me.' They just want to find some reason to believe that their darling daughter whom they raised in the ways of the lord was under your evil influence and will come back to the straight and narrow as soon as they can get her away from you. It's easier on them than having 'failed'. So be sympathetic, but like you said, don't submit. I think Helen's right about quoting scripture - forget it. Do you believe the bible is true or not?

10-13-2002, 11:40 AM	#30
Liquidrage Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,301	The only problem I see, jasonpiao, with trying to use the Bible to justify (or to at least claim it doesn't clearly state what you are doing is wrong) your relationship is that by doing so you yourself accept the Bible as a moral standard even though you do not mean to. I understand this isn't your purpose, but the Bible is of course an ambigous book. So the following could happen. In-Law: "So, you know you are living in sin?" You: "Acutally, the Bible says..." In-Law: "Well, I am glad you accept the Bible as a moral standard" You: "Well..ummm...errr" In-Law: "Because it also says....." You: "Well, ah...hmm" In-Law: "See you in church next Sunday" If you do not want to go down the road of presenting the Bible as amoral then I suggest you ignore the Bible completely even if baited and focus solely on love and respect.

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