Freethought & Rationalism Archive

evilone · 01-09-2002, 02:14 PM

If we have freedom of religion in America, can a Muslim man immigrating to the United States with his 4 wives? Would he be forced to divorce three of them after settling here.

Euromutt · 01-09-2002, 03:30 PM

Simple answer to the topic title: No.
One of the questions asked of immigrants to the US is "Do you intend to practice polygamy in the US?" A positive answer gets you turned down.

It should be pointed out that Islam does not, strictly speaking, encourage polygamy - it merely allows it; in fact, the Koran limits the number of wives to four, and larger numbers of wives were common in the Arabian peninsula before the spread of Islam. The Koran in fact encourages men to limit themselves to one wife.

Anyway, there may be freedom of religious belief, but there are limitations on freedom of religious practice - to echo Ysabella in the John Walker thread, you are free to be a Satanist, but there are laws which restrict your right to enact human sacrifice.

Mecha_Dude · 01-09-2002, 03:37 PM

Well, divorcing 3 of em wouldn't be too tough, just call em to a room and say "Thou art dismissed" nine consecutive times

Toto · 01-09-2002, 04:19 PM

This is a well settled point of law. The Mormons in Utah used to practice polygamy. The history of that practice is related <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_poly.htm" target="_blank">here</a>:

Quote:

In actions reminiscent of the "same-sex marriage" debate which started in the late 1990's, the Mormon practice of polygamy was countered by the federal Morrill Act of 1862 and the Edmunds Act of 1882. The Church claimed that the federal government had no jurisdiction to regulate marriage and other internal church practices. They also claimed that the act was a violation of their First Amendment rights. In 1879, the US Supreme Court declared that the Morrill Act was constitutional, that the government had a right to enforce marital standards, and that polygamy was a barbarous practice.

The federal government canceled the citizenship of polygamous Mormons; they were no longer allowed to vote, run for public office or serve on a jury. Eventually, the government disincorporated the Church and began to confiscate its assets. In 1890, the Supreme Court determined that the government could take away citizenships from all members of the church.

The "Great Accommodation" of 1890:
When the government announced that they would start to seize the temples, the Church decided to obey the law. At that time, the Church received a revelation from God that changed church beliefs and practices. The fourth president of the Church, Wilford Woodruff, issued a manifesto (called the "Great Accommodation") on 1890-SEP-24. It generally suspended the solemnization of plural marriages. Woodtuff wrote, in part, "And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land."

The Resistance · 01-09-2002, 08:33 PM

Let him. Then allow his four wives to leave him and collect alimony.

emotional · 01-09-2002, 08:49 PM

Flat-out NO. People are free to believe in nonsense, but only materialism can be allowed to have any bearing on the real world. Secularism has primacy over all alleged "Words of God".

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/secularism.html" target="_blank">Necessity and Primacy of Secularism</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/realworld.html" target="_blank">Real-World Claims: Materialism against Occultism</a>

Vorkosigan · 01-10-2002, 02:09 AM

Devnet, what does polygamy have to do with secularism? Whether or not it is a religious practice, the State has no compelling reason to prevent people from having more than one wife or husband, anymore than it has a compelling reason to limit someone to one girlfriend, or to prevent same-sex marriage. In a secular state, the law should exist to preserve the crucial right of consent, but stop after that.

Michael

ohwilleke · 01-10-2002, 07:36 AM

I agree that the current legal answer is No. But, I also note that I think it this is a bad decision and is not very consistent with modern First Amendment jurisprudence on freedom of religion which was not well established when that case was decided. If the same case had been decided for the very first time in 2002, I'm not sure that it would have been decided in the same way.

Toto · 01-10-2002, 09:03 AM

ohwilleke- From a strictly legal point of view you may be right, but from a political point of view I don't think any judge anywhere is going to legitimate polygamy. There will be some loophole, some new doctrine, whatever it takes.

One the right, you have moralists who think that too much sex is wrong. Even though polygamy is in the Bible, they are sure it is wrong. The fact that Muslims practice it is another strike against it.

On the left, you have social workers who have studied how polygamy works in practice, in those pockets of resistance in Utah which practice the old Mormon ways. The typical polygamous family involves an older man with a lot of teen age brides, most of whom are on welfare. The young women are pressured into marriage at a too early age, and are trapped in their situation.

This is not to say that the secular state has any business telling people who they can sleep with, or how many people can be involved. If you take that idea to its logical conclusion, you should just abolish the institution of marriage and let people make whatever private arrangements they wish. But as a matter of political reality, this society is not ready to sanction traditional polygamy.

diana · 01-10-2002, 04:11 PM

Not to mention the unimaginable headache of filing that joint tax return with all the "Addition Wife Credit" worksheets, and trying to decide if the wife, being under 18, might draw more of an exemption if she was filed under "Addition Child Credit" worksheets...

d

01-09-2002, 02:14 PM	#1
evilone Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Waldorf, MD Posts: 7	Can a Muslim man legally immigrate to the US with his 4 wives? If we have freedom of religion in America, can a Muslim man immigrating to the United States with his 4 wives? Would he be forced to divorce three of them after settling here.

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01-09-2002, 03:30 PM	#2
Euromutt Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Netherlands (the Kingdom of the Dammed) Posts: 687	Simple answer to the topic title: No. One of the questions asked of immigrants to the US is "Do you intend to practice polygamy in the US?" A positive answer gets you turned down. It should be pointed out that Islam does not, strictly speaking, encourage polygamy - it merely allows it; in fact, the Koran limits the number of wives to four, and larger numbers of wives were common in the Arabian peninsula before the spread of Islam. The Koran in fact encourages men to limit themselves to one wife. Anyway, there may be freedom of religious belief, but there are limitations on freedom of religious practice - to echo Ysabella in the John Walker thread, you are free to be a Satanist, but there are laws which restrict your right to enact human sacrifice.

01-09-2002, 03:37 PM	#3
Mecha_Dude Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Everywhere... I'm Watching you... Posts: 1,019	Well, divorcing 3 of em wouldn't be too tough, just call em to a room and say "Thou art dismissed" nine consecutive times

01-09-2002, 08:33 PM	#5
The Resistance Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 571	Let him. Then allow his four wives to leave him and collect alimony.

01-09-2002, 08:49 PM	#6
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Flat-out NO. People are free to believe in nonsense, but only materialism can be allowed to have any bearing on the real world. Secularism has primacy over all alleged "Words of God". <a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/secularism.html" target="_blank">Necessity and Primacy of Secularism</a> <a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/realworld.html" target="_blank">Real-World Claims: Materialism against Occultism</a>

01-10-2002, 02:09 AM	#7
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Devnet, what does polygamy have to do with secularism? Whether or not it is a religious practice, the State has no compelling reason to prevent people from having more than one wife or husband, anymore than it has a compelling reason to limit someone to one girlfriend, or to prevent same-sex marriage. In a secular state, the law should exist to preserve the crucial right of consent, but stop after that. Michael

01-10-2002, 07:36 AM	#8
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	I agree that the current legal answer is No. But, I also note that I think it this is a bad decision and is not very consistent with modern First Amendment jurisprudence on freedom of religion which was not well established when that case was decided. If the same case had been decided for the very first time in 2002, I'm not sure that it would have been decided in the same way.

01-10-2002, 09:03 AM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	ohwilleke- From a strictly legal point of view you may be right, but from a political point of view I don't think any judge anywhere is going to legitimate polygamy. There will be some loophole, some new doctrine, whatever it takes. One the right, you have moralists who think that too much sex is wrong. Even though polygamy is in the Bible, they are sure it is wrong. The fact that Muslims practice it is another strike against it. On the left, you have social workers who have studied how polygamy works in practice, in those pockets of resistance in Utah which practice the old Mormon ways. The typical polygamous family involves an older man with a lot of teen age brides, most of whom are on welfare. The young women are pressured into marriage at a too early age, and are trapped in their situation. This is not to say that the secular state has any business telling people who they can sleep with, or how many people can be involved. If you take that idea to its logical conclusion, you should just abolish the institution of marriage and let people make whatever private arrangements they wish. But as a matter of political reality, this society is not ready to sanction traditional polygamy.

01-10-2002, 04:11 PM	#10
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Not to mention the unimaginable headache of filing that joint tax return with all the "Addition Wife Credit" worksheets, and trying to decide if the wife, being under 18, might draw more of an exemption if she was filed under "Addition Child Credit" worksheets... d

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