Freethought & Rationalism Archive

doodad · 12-16-2002, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
I spent some time over Thanksgiving with some younger friends who have two nearly perfect pre-teen children. At one point, the female of the couple was talking about a friend of hers and remarked, "and she was the one who told me that you can't be a mother and not believe in God." She said this with a smug sense of revealing a great moral insight into life, that giving birth gives meaning.

Without thinking, I said, "but most mothers in the world do not believe in God, or at least not in the same God." But then I decided that I should bite my tongue in the interest of social relations and holiday cheer. Too much logic is not the way to make or keep friends.

So I thought I would open the topic here.

It seems to me that, far from proving God, motherhood is evidence of either no God, or of Satan. Early Jews and Christians had to invent the idea of original sin to account for the pain of childbirth. Before modern medicine, childbirth was a major cause of death for women. After modern medicine, obstetrics became a major source for malpractice lawsuits.

(In fact, I would argue that the entire profession of medicine is evidence that there was no Intelligent Designer. Numerous examples come to mind.)

And this is without considering that most children do not fulfill their parents' hopes for them, necessarily have to rebel as part of normal maturation, don't pick up after themselves, etc., etc. Or that the hormonal changes in pregnancy and afterwards drive some women to mental illness and to kill their own children.

So has anyone heard this argument before? Is there anything you can say to it in a social situation?

Perhaps she was trying to equate giving birth to the creation which she believes in. That is, God gave birth to mankind as part of his creation effort.

I'm not wanting to argue the theory of creation, just trying to offer a possible explanation for what she said. Within the dynamic of her beliefs she did something God-like. She created life by giving birth.

What can you say in a social situation? If you enjoy that person's company or friendship then don't make an issue of it. Would you want someone on your case because they did not share your worldview?

12-16-2002, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by doodad:

Perhaps she was trying to equate giving birth to the creation which she believes in. That is, God gave birth to mankind as part of his creation effort.

Well you know, she wasn't that far wrong. Science will never create independent life for the simple reason that life is an illusion. Science may be able to duplicate life but will never create it ex nihilo for the simple reason that science must begin with the matter at hand.

babelfish · 12-17-2002, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by frostymama:
I will admit that when my fist was born I started searching earnestly to discover how I felt about religion (and I eventually ended up here). When you have a kid there is this overwhelming desire NOT to screw them up for life. Everything just seems more important... including religious beliefs.

I had some of these same thoughts when my kids were litte. Especially the wish not to "screw them up." I can really relate to that! I asked myself "am I depriving my kids in some horrible way by not introducing them to religion and by not belonging to a religious community?"

Then the more I thought about the values I wished to impart to my precious children, the most important ones seemed to be truth and honesty. And I realized that if we were to join a church, I would be living a lie, and my children would be taught lies.

Now that they're bigger, I would like to think that if they have any questions, I will be able to answer them without compromising my integrity. Or if I don't have the answers, I'll be able to point them to a source that will provide the answers they are looking for, without having to "protect" them from ideas that clash with some religious indoctrination.

Miraculously, so far, my kids are quite delightful and exhibit great morals and ethics as well.

(I may be a bit biased, I admit

)

abe smith · 12-17-2002, 06:26 AM

NAW, Babe(l): you're not biassed a bit. Any kids who have you for a Mother ARE wonderful. And also damn lucky. Tell Ben & KC , grandpa said to tell them this.

babelfish · 12-17-2002, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith:
NAW, Babe(l): you're not biassed a bit. Any kids who have you for a Mother ARE wonderful. And also damn lucky. Tell Ben & KC , grandpa said to tell them this.

Hi Abe!

Always nice to run into you!

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12-17-2002, 06:26 AM	#34
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	NAW, Babe(l): you're not biassed a bit. Any kids who have you for a Mother ARE wonderful. And also damn lucky. Tell Ben & KC , grandpa said to tell them this.

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