Toto

I spent some time over Thanksgiving with some younger friends who have two nearly perfect pre-teen children. At one point, the female of the couple was talking about a friend of hers and remarked, "and she was the one who told me that you can't be a mother and not believe in God." She said this with a smug sense of revealing a great moral insight into life, that giving birth gives meaning.

Without thinking, I said, "but most mothers in the world do not believe in God, or at least not in the same God." But then I decided that I should bite my tongue in the interest of social relations and holiday cheer. Too much logic is not the way to make or keep friends.

So I thought I would open the topic here.

It seems to me that, far from proving God, motherhood is evidence of either no God, or of Satan. Early Jews and Christians had to invent the idea of original sin to account for the pain of childbirth. Before modern medicine, childbirth was a major cause of death for women. After modern medicine, obstetrics became a major source for malpractice lawsuits.

(In fact, I would argue that the entire profession of medicine is evidence that there was no Intelligent Designer. Numerous examples come to mind.)

And this is without considering that most children do not fulfill their parents' hopes for them, necessarily have to rebel as part of normal maturation, don't pick up after themselves, etc., etc. Or that the hormonal changes in pregnancy and afterwards drive some women to mental illness and to kill their own children.

So has anyone heard this argument before? Is there anything you can say to it in a social situation?

lisarea

Well, I don't recall having heard this one before, but I'd imagine the appropriate response would be to make your optical nerves all sproingy and pop your eyeballs out about a foot from your face, then cause a lot of brightly-colored question marks to fly out of your head, and say "Huh," but sort of with reverb, so it sounds like "Huwawawawawawa?" If you can also make your head bobble and then turn your eyes into Xes and fall down like you just got hit with a giant projectile of densely-packed stupid, that would be even better.

I think the only explanation is that most of the time that people are talking, whatever they're saying could be quite neatly replaced with an audiotape of howler monkeys or traffic sounds without any tangible loss of communication.

I guess you could try to get her to bet money, maybe. Other than that, I can't imagine any real productive way to approach an argument like that.

thebeave

Strictly speaking, I dont't see any kind of a connection between motherhood and god, either for or against. She might as well have said, "Oreo cookies is proof of God". Of course, childbirth is often described as a "miracle" or as a spiritual event or a gift from God by many women, so maybe that is what she's talking about. Being a single childless man, I can't offer much help here.

alek0

I never understood why is childbirth refered to as miracle. You had unprotected sex in your fertile days, you got pregnant, gave birth to a normal human baby - natural course of events. Where's the miracle? Any deviation from normal natural process would have more justification to be called a miracle.

If she gave birth to a toaster, that would be miracle. Human baby as a consequence of sex between two human beings a miracle? Nah...

Jobar

Back in the seventies and early eighties, my brother, a year younger than I, was a partyin' dude who never went to church, and scoffed at religion. He was never an outspoken atheist like I was (and am) but he was no sheep.

When he got married, and had his first son, he started going to church with his wife. I asked him why; he said it was to keep on good terms with his wife. I made it plain I thought he was supporting a lie when I found out he donated money to the church.

Then he joined the Worldwide Church of God. I was thunderstruck; here was my brother, who had read and discussed everything from science fiction to underground comics with me, joining a bloody cult! I remember one day in particular, when we were out cutting firewood together, and I was trying to convince him that he was wrong in many ways to join a church just to please his wife.

He told me then it was *not* just to please his wife; that ever since his son was born, that he had been a believer, because not to believe in his son's salvation was just too painful.

So I have heard this "reason" before, with 'fatherhood' substituted. It of course is not a reason; it's a rationalization, an irrational reaction to the fact of death. And it's very, very common.

(My brother got out of the WWCOG when the church fell to internecine squabbling; but he still goes to church every Sunday, and his oldest son, my nephew, talks of being a preacher. He's 15; one of the reasons I am so open in my unbelief is to give him, his brothers and his sister, all of whom I love, the chance to see that there are alternatives to ancient superstitions. Sadly, so far none of them have come to me; I will not try to force them to learn skepticism, but I do try to teach it as best I can.)

Bane

Well if I managed to shit a watermelon I'd probably consider it a miracle.

lpetrich

There is an aspect of giving birth that smacks of very poor design -- giving birth through the main pelvic opening. Which is a very tight squeeze. It would be much easier to give birth in the forward direction, going above the pelvis.

However, that is very understandable if that is the result of evolution -- that arrangement was first "invented" by some early amphibian or reptile, which had laid lots of small eggs through it -- and was faithfully preserved by its descendants, because it was too difficult to change. Even descendants that gave birth to relatively big babies. Which continue to have an "eggshell" -- the amniotic sac.

And from a male standpoint, it would be nice to have cetacean-style genitals -- a male cetacean keeps his penis in a slot in his belly, and his testicles are on the inside.

Amie

Hi there Jobar

I don't think it's a lie...

ahhh but the wrath of the female Jobar...think of it! He was safer to join the church!
(I am joking. I agree he should go to church for himself, however I think attending with a theist spouse is rather endearing)

now did he become a believer for his son only?

Jobar why do you use the term "sadly" none of them have come to you? I am curious about that. Does it bother you that they are believers? if so, why?

Bumble Bee Tuna

I think a better response would be to say "I know a mother who doesn't believe in God, what are you talking about?"
She would then realize it was a stupid thing to say, probably modify her position to "well childbirth to me makes me believe in God". To which you could say "good for you" and change the subject. Of course, that's not very cheery, so this dialogue can take place only in my fantasy land.
As for Jobar's brother: Did you tell him that if he simply didn't believe there was any hell to be saved from, the pain would stop as well?

-B

lisarea

Actually, yeah, I think it is pretty common.

I THINK it was Milton (I get the Bible, Paradise Lost/Regained, and Jesus Christ Superstar confused all the time) who said that the 'pain of childbirth' wasn't just physical, but psychological as well. When you have a child, you do so with the full knowledge that it will die eventually. Giving life is giving death.

Further, the idea that one of you will die first, leaving the other, is pretty painful. Before my son was born, I used to ride motorcyles and stuff all the time. Afterward, though, I really started being afraid to die simply because I knew that, if I died too young, it could really ruin his life. And I wanted to see him grow up, too.

I suppose it can be really tempting to convince yourself that this will never really happen. If you die, you can still watch your child grow up, maybe even guide and comfort them somehow. And the obverse as well. If you outlive your children, you can still talk to them. They don't stop existing, and eventually, you'll see them again. And basically, oblivion is something that's very difficult to fathom. I mean, it's not like you can remember not existing. It's not something that it's easy to wrap your brain around. Everything we know and understand comes from a basic framework of existence.

So I can certainly see the temptation, but it doesn't make the original claim any less stupid.