Calzaer

Has anyone else noticed this?

Every single person the Abrahamic God has spoken to, from Moses to Jesus, has said works and deeds are required to obtain God's salvation. Even Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and whoever the brain trust was that made up the Jehova's Witnesses all place an emphasis on what you DO as well as what you believe.

Then there was Paul.

Paul was the only guy God ever talked to who said "Nah, God says you don't actually have to do anything." Even Jesus said "Faith without works is dead" (note: Even if he did mean to say "If you don't do works, you don't have faith", doing works as proof of faith is still doing works and is apparently still required). But Paul made it abundantly clear God told HIM that there was no need to do any good deeds at all.

Doesn't anyone find that a little suspicious? It's Abrahamically unprecedented. It's no surprise that it caught on, of course, but I'm a bit surprised how widely ignored this perticular tidbit is. It turns out that the Protestants (in their own haphazard way) are the only Abrahamics who believe nothing you do in life actually matters. Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, Jews, etc all believe that actions as well as thoughts are required to earn God's favor. Only the people who follow Paul to the exclusion of everything else believe otherwise.

Isn't that suspicious? That God talked to dozens of people, and all but one said works were necessary?

Arken

All the easier to convert the Romans.

I remember hearing a scholar explain that the popularity of both Christianity and Islam is directly related to their offering salvation without much work. Neither of them require very much of you at all and the supposed reward is eternal paradise. You can see why a Roman, who was either headed to Hades to do nothing or Elysium to fight an eternal war and even then only if he sacrificed the right animals to the right Gods might find the appeal of just saying "Yep, I believe in Jesus!" and going to paradise.

YHWHtruth

“Jas. 2:14, 26, RS: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)”

Max

Arken

Okay, but what does that have to do with anything?

Peter Kirby

Does anyone know the correct interpretation of these words in the epistle of Paul to the Romans?

Romans 2:5-8.

{5} By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath and revelation for the just judgment of God,
{6} who will repay everyone according to his works:
{7} eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
{8} but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Romans 2:13-16.

{13} For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
{14} For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
{15} They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughs accuse or even defend them
{16} on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

best,
Peter Kirby

EstherRose

Works are not proof of faith to anyone but the individual. God looks at the hearts of us and can see without the proof of works whether or not we genuinely accept Jesus as our Lord.

Romans 2:5-8.
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

The key to understanding this passage is in the last verse: those who reject the truth. God grants us salvation when we accept Jesus into our lives and acknowledge that He is the Son of God. If someone does not accept Jesus into their life, they reject God’s truth.

Romans 2:13-16.
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Here the Bible is referring to those who believe the Mosaic law will grant them eternal life. Some people of that time believed that following that law would grant them eternal life. This passage shows that no one of us is capable of gaining salvation through that law. Only by accepting Jesus can we be saved.

Gurdur

Pauline Christianity is very much a subject of great debate in theological circles.
Interesting are the Thomist and Jamesian alternatives in churches like the Copts and the Armenians (as in Armenia, not the theology).
Not totally, no.
See The Book Of Job, and Ecclesiates.
As Terry Pratchett might say, different gods for different sods.

Kilgore Trout

You must means works of obedience like following Jesus' orders in Luke 19:27 Christians of today love to say that the Spanish Inquistion and the massacre of millions of "savages" in the New World was done by people who weren't "true christians." On the contrary, they were doing exactly what their god ordered. Jesus wanted them to kill people who did not worship him. It is meaningless to say a christian will always do good works to reflect his love of god. Since god is always considered right, whatever the church does will be considered right at the time it is done, only later, when people become less savage do people look back at it and say it was "unchristian".


Yes, I know there are plenty of "apologetic" reasons why you are going to say that Luke 19:27 does not mean to kill people. But the words are clear. Going through verbal gymnastics to come up with some excuse does not change the plain words in the text.

Besides, lets say it doesn't mean Jesus is condoning killing his enemies. Since Jesus is supposed to know the future he would know that millions of people would die because of that order. He would be very stupid (or a sicko) not to rephrase the words so people would understand him. I would say this and other anti-semitic verses in the NT are what caused all the hatred of the Jews and eventually led to the Holocaust.

Peter Kirby

EstherRose, I am aware of the Protestant Christian doctrine on soteriology: "Only by accepting Jesus can we be saved." I was wondering whether anyone had any information on the meaning of these particular texts, viewed in themselves and in the historical context, not necessarily as Scripture.

best,
Peter Kirby

Calzaer

Esther: Why do you believe Paul's words over Christ's?