Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Heart-shattered · 01-12-2002, 03:28 PM

Why is it that atheists and agnostics bicker over their respective views on the question of god? To me, it is a pointless question.

I consider myself an 'agnostic atheist.' That is, I reject god and religion, but I do not claim knowledge to the nonexistence of gods.

This being said, I don't know why the difference should matter (of course, atheists and agnostics may argue over it for intellectual enrichment) and why agnostics should be dubbed 'cowards' for not going all out and wholeheartedly rejecting gods.

I merely admit that I don't know everything. I disbelieve in gods, but I can't prove it--but that's not what is important. I shouldn't have to disprove a positive, because the positive claim must be supported by evidence. With god, of course, this is not the case. But I refuse to say that I am 100% sure that no god exists, because until we have a better knowledge and understanding of the origin of the existence of the universe I refuse to completely rule it out.

Religion is a different issue, of course. Religion is mostly contradictory and malevolent in it's nature, and I can say for sure that religion is total nonsense.

I sometimes wonder if those who call themselves "strong" atheists do so not because they know that gods don't exist, but rather that they despise the idea so much that they feel better thinking that they know gods do not exist. As much as we may despise the idea, our opinions should not determine to us what really is the case. Until a god is proven or disproven otherwise, I refuse to take a position at either end of the rope when it comes to the question of god.

H.P. Lovecraft is often quoted to support the "strong" atheist position. He says that the possibility of theism being true is so microscopically small that it must be false. I can agree with this--but there is still that small possibility that a god may exist.

Unless, of course, you would define an atheist as one who merely disbelieves in gods. If this is the definition, then I would consider myself an atheist, but if the definition that everyone likes is "one who knows gods don't exist," then count me out.

Ok, so I refuse to go out on a limb and claim I know gods don't exist. So what? I still live a secular life, and that is all that should matter.

Prince Ashitaka · 01-12-2002, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Down:
Unless, of course, you would define an atheist as one who merely disbelieves in gods. If this is the definition, then I would consider myself an atheist, but if the definition that everyone likes is "one who knows gods don't exist," then count me out.

Most atheists classify themselves into the former, and it is usually theists who try to classify them into the latter. I would never classify myself into the latter, and neither would a lot of atheists.

"I go to see with eyes unclouded by hate."

- Prince Ashitaka -

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Prince Ashitaka ]

three4jump · 01-12-2002, 04:40 PM

Down, I agree with most of what you say. I would add that I like the term agnostic because it can encompass more than just religion. Although most people think of agnosticism dealing only with gods and religion, there are many other ideologies out there that people would like us to accept on faith. For example, consumerism is the new religion in the U.S. We are expected to believe that no problem in our lives is so great that it can't be cured or mitigated by purchasing something. Even the government got antsy when consumers felt less inclined to buy things they don't need after 9/11 got them thinking. The way our economy is organized, if consumers lose faith in the magic of cheeseburgers and SUVs we will fall into an economic depression worse than the thirties.

Although most people don't acknowledge such a broad sense of the term, my agnosticism encompasses all sorts of nonsense besides just religion.

mongrel · 01-12-2002, 04:48 PM

Quote:

I sometimes wonder if those who call themselves "strong" atheists do so not because they know that gods don't exist, but rather that they despise the idea so much that they feel better thinking that they know gods do not exist. As much as we may despise the idea, our opinions should not determine to us what really is the case. Until a god is proven or disproven otherwise, I refuse to take a position at either end of the rope when it comes to the question of god.

I agree with this 100%. I often have to stop myself from saying something like "There is no god". I know that if I could say it truthfully, I would feel better. But it's impossible to prove something does not exist, so I have to remind myself from time to time of this and accept that it's extremely unlikely any god(s) exist(s). With all this in mind, I think strong atheism is a kind of faith, too(even if it is more rational than religion).

My spin on things.

Derek · 01-12-2002, 04:50 PM

Wish I would this earlier, would have helped in a telephone conversation with Xn. I will remember for the future.

Prince Ashitaka · 01-12-2002, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mongreldog:


I agree with this 100%. I often have to stop myself from saying something like "There is no god". I know that if I could say it truthfully, I would feel better. But it's impossible to prove something does not exist, so I have to remind myself from time to time of this and accept that it's extremely unlikely any god(s) exist(s). With all this in mind, I think strong atheism is a kind of faith, too(even if it is more rational than religion).

I agree too. But that is why I am a weak atheist, as are most atheists I have seen.

"I go to see with eyes unclouded by hate."

- Prince Ashitaka -

Makai · 01-12-2002, 05:40 PM

Down-

I agree with you; I don't see why atheists and agnostics tend to bicker. I don't ever argue with agnostics just because I treat agnosticism the same way you do; you have both agnostic theists, and agnostic atheists.

Now, 'strong atheism' is a different subject. There are real problems in getting the concept of 'strong atheism' across to people. It seems that many people, whether they are agnostic, atheist, or theist, tend to think that strong atheists believe that 'no type of god could possibly exist'. This is obviously not the case; it would take omniscience to make such a declaration. People normally profess 'strong atheism' in regards to a specific type of god, ie. the Christian God, the Islamic God, etc. I consider myself a 'strong atheist' because I believe that the gods of the traditional 'revealed religions' are impossible. I cannot rule out the possibility of *any* sort of God existing. (Especially giving how much leeway exists when one defines a 'God'). I generally call myself a 'strong atheist', because when people talk to me about god, they are almost always talking about a type of god which I *do* think cannot exist. If it became the case that most people meant god in a way where that god wasn't inherently contradictory (for example, the deistic god), then I would no longer call myself a 'strong atheist'.

It seems to me that people choose the term 'agnostic' because they think that 'strong atheism' forces them into an untenable position. I think that many conflicts between agnostics and atheists would be cleared up if everyone would recognize 'strong atheism' as a position relative to a certian god-type. In my eyes, everyone is agnostic in respect to some gods, and everyone professes 'strong atheism' in respect to some gods.

-Makai

[EDIT: I can't spell!! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> ]

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Makai ]

Heart-shattered · 01-12-2002, 05:47 PM

Now, 'strong atheism' is a different subject. There are real problems in getting the concept of 'strong atheism' across to people. It seems that many people, whether they are agnostic, atheist, or theist, tend to think that strong atheists believe that 'no type of god could possibly exist'. This is obviously not the case; it would take omniscience to make such a declaration. People normally profess 'strong atheism' in regards to a specific type of god, ie. the Christian God, the Islamic God, etc. I consider myself a 'strong atheist' because I believe that the gods of the traditional 'revealed religions' are impossible. I cannot rule out the possibility of *any* sort of God existing. (Especially giving how much leeway exists when one defines a 'God'). I generally call myself a 'strong atheist', because when people talk to me about god, they are almost always talking about a type of god which I *do* think cannot exist. If it became the case that most people meant god in a way where that god wasn't inherently contradictory (for example, the deistic god), then I would no longer call myself a 'strong atheist'.

I would completely agree with you in that respect. Regarding the gods of the traditional religion, I agree with you that we know they are false. What I mean by 'god' is ANY god. That is, I mean 'god' as any higher being that created the universe. It is with this definition that I consider myself an atheist agnostic, but with traditional religion's gods, I am a strong atheist.

Makai · 01-12-2002, 05:53 PM

Exactly, down

Maybe it's just me, but I don't *anyone* who claims to be a strong atheist in regard to 'any possible type of god'. Anyone here know someone like that? At least until there is ONE standard, agree-upon def. of what exactly 'god' means, 'absolute strong atheism' does seem to be a very silly position. Because who knows...the universe **might** have been created by a super-intelligent, hyper-dimensional shade of blue

-Makai

copernicus · 01-12-2002, 05:57 PM

If "atheist" and "agnostic" were terms applied to Santa Claus rather than God, which would you be? Personally, I'd have to admit to being a "Santa Claus agnostic" who goes around claiming that "Santa Claus doesn't exist." After all, how do we really know? (BTW, I'm not talking about the "literal Santa Claus", but the metaphoric one. You know. The one that Amos believes in.

)

01-12-2002, 03:28 PM	#1
Heart-shattered Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: USA Posts: 43	In defense of agnosticism Why is it that atheists and agnostics bicker over their respective views on the question of god? To me, it is a pointless question. I consider myself an 'agnostic atheist.' That is, I reject god and religion, but I do not claim knowledge to the nonexistence of gods. This being said, I don't know why the difference should matter (of course, atheists and agnostics may argue over it for intellectual enrichment) and why agnostics should be dubbed 'cowards' for not going all out and wholeheartedly rejecting gods. I merely admit that I don't know everything. I disbelieve in gods, but I can't prove it--but that's not what is important. I shouldn't have to disprove a positive, because the positive claim must be supported by evidence. With god, of course, this is not the case. But I refuse to say that I am 100% sure that no god exists, because until we have a better knowledge and understanding of the origin of the existence of the universe I refuse to completely rule it out. Religion is a different issue, of course. Religion is mostly contradictory and malevolent in it's nature, and I can say for sure that religion is total nonsense. I sometimes wonder if those who call themselves "strong" atheists do so not because they know that gods don't exist, but rather that they despise the idea so much that they feel better thinking that they know gods do not exist. As much as we may despise the idea, our opinions should not determine to us what really is the case. Until a god is proven or disproven otherwise, I refuse to take a position at either end of the rope when it comes to the question of god. H.P. Lovecraft is often quoted to support the "strong" atheist position. He says that the possibility of theism being true is so microscopically small that it must be false. I can agree with this--but there is still that small possibility that a god may exist. Unless, of course, you would define an atheist as one who merely disbelieves in gods. If this is the definition, then I would consider myself an atheist, but if the definition that everyone likes is "one who knows gods don't exist," then count me out. Ok, so I refuse to go out on a limb and claim I know gods don't exist. So what? I still live a secular life, and that is all that should matter.

01-12-2002, 05:40 PM	#7
Makai Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 51	Down- I agree with you; I don't see why atheists and agnostics tend to bicker. I don't ever argue with agnostics just because I treat agnosticism the same way you do; you have both agnostic theists, and agnostic atheists. Now, 'strong atheism' is a different subject. There are real problems in getting the concept of 'strong atheism' across to people. It seems that many people, whether they are agnostic, atheist, or theist, tend to think that strong atheists believe that 'no type of god could possibly exist'. This is obviously not the case; it would take omniscience to make such a declaration. People normally profess 'strong atheism' in regards to a specific type of god, ie. the Christian God, the Islamic God, etc. I consider myself a 'strong atheist' because I believe that the gods of the traditional 'revealed religions' are impossible. I cannot rule out the possibility of any sort of God existing. (Especially giving how much leeway exists when one defines a 'God'). I generally call myself a 'strong atheist', because when people talk to me about god, they are almost always talking about a type of god which I do think cannot exist. If it became the case that most people meant god in a way where that god wasn't inherently contradictory (for example, the deistic god), then I would no longer call myself a 'strong atheist'. It seems to me that people choose the term 'agnostic' because they think that 'strong atheism' forces them into an untenable position. I think that many conflicts between agnostics and atheists would be cleared up if everyone would recognize 'strong atheism' as a position relative to a certian god-type. In my eyes, everyone is agnostic in respect to some gods, and everyone professes 'strong atheism' in respect to some gods. -Makai [EDIT: I can't spell!! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> ] [ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Makai ]</p>

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01-12-2002, 04:40 PM	#3
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	Down, I agree with most of what you say. I would add that I like the term agnostic because it can encompass more than just religion. Although most people think of agnosticism dealing only with gods and religion, there are many other ideologies out there that people would like us to accept on faith. For example, consumerism is the new religion in the U.S. We are expected to believe that no problem in our lives is so great that it can't be cured or mitigated by purchasing something. Even the government got antsy when consumers felt less inclined to buy things they don't need after 9/11 got them thinking. The way our economy is organized, if consumers lose faith in the magic of cheeseburgers and SUVs we will fall into an economic depression worse than the thirties. Although most people don't acknowledge such a broad sense of the term, my agnosticism encompasses all sorts of nonsense besides just religion.

01-12-2002, 04:50 PM	#5
Derek Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 67	Wish I would this earlier, would have helped in a telephone conversation with Xn. I will remember for the future.

01-12-2002, 05:47 PM	#8
Heart-shattered Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: USA Posts: 43	Now, 'strong atheism' is a different subject. There are real problems in getting the concept of 'strong atheism' across to people. It seems that many people, whether they are agnostic, atheist, or theist, tend to think that strong atheists believe that 'no type of god could possibly exist'. This is obviously not the case; it would take omniscience to make such a declaration. People normally profess 'strong atheism' in regards to a specific type of god, ie. the Christian God, the Islamic God, etc. I consider myself a 'strong atheist' because I believe that the gods of the traditional 'revealed religions' are impossible. I cannot rule out the possibility of any sort of God existing. (Especially giving how much leeway exists when one defines a 'God'). I generally call myself a 'strong atheist', because when people talk to me about god, they are almost always talking about a type of god which I do think cannot exist. If it became the case that most people meant god in a way where that god wasn't inherently contradictory (for example, the deistic god), then I would no longer call myself a 'strong atheist'. I would completely agree with you in that respect. Regarding the gods of the traditional religion, I agree with you that we know they are false. What I mean by 'god' is ANY god. That is, I mean 'god' as any higher being that created the universe. It is with this definition that I consider myself an atheist agnostic, but with traditional religion's gods, I am a strong atheist.

01-12-2002, 05:53 PM	#9
Makai Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 51	Exactly, down Maybe it's just me, but I don't anyone who claims to be a strong atheist in regard to 'any possible type of god'. Anyone here know someone like that? At least until there is ONE standard, agree-upon def. of what exactly 'god' means, 'absolute strong atheism' does seem to be a very silly position. Because who knows...the universe might have been created by a super-intelligent, hyper-dimensional shade of blue -Makai

01-12-2002, 05:57 PM	#10
copernicus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,531	If "atheist" and "agnostic" were terms applied to Santa Claus rather than God, which would you be? Personally, I'd have to admit to being a "Santa Claus agnostic" who goes around claiming that "Santa Claus doesn't exist." After all, how do we really know? (BTW, I'm not talking about the "literal Santa Claus", but the metaphoric one. You know. The one that Amos believes in. )

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