A3

Hello Hobbs

Originally posted by A3:
However, it seems important what we base our sense of right or wrong on.
I wonder what would motivate someone who does not believe in anything to be courteous in traffic, to be considerate??
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“If, however, you are aware that other people exist, if you care about any of them
(and if you care about yourself, you at least have a selfish reason to care about others: if you scratch their backs, they're more likely to be willing to scratch yours; and since we are social creatures and our own well-being depends heavily on the well-being of others and the society we all live in, it seems reasonable that we would have evolved a capacity to naturally care about at least some others), and you pay any attention to causes and effects of actions, you can derive plenty of reasons for judgments of right or wrong, better or worse, in traffic or any other situations. (The same sort of stuff I would imagine that a god would base its moral judgments on; unless, of course, that god's moral judgments were just groundless, arbitrary whims).”
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There seem indeed “plenty of reasons for judgments,” but (unless I’m reading you wrong) they all appear to revolve about “if you care about any of them” or “if you scratch their backs, they're more likely to be willing to scratch yours.” But how is this going to apply to e.g. you and someone in another car, who you don’t know any more about than the color of his or her car and will never meet again?

Does everything indeed boil down to ‘what I get out of it’ or are you including in your “plenty of reasons” anything else?

Regards
Adriaan

Corona688

The Golden Rule, as well, don't forget. You treat people the way you wish to be treated; people are much more likely to do so if you treat them well FIRST.

Frivolous

Morality doesnt come from following god, because you can say that you are only following god because you want to go to heaven and you are afraid of hell. No matter what you say, someone can always point this out and you can never prove it to be wrong.

So christians arent absolutely moral either really...

There can never be a good deed that someone can knowingly do, without the presence of some sort of selfishness, however small it can never be extinguished.
Like donating money anonymously to charity, someone could say that you gained personal satisfaction out of it.

So are good deeds really good deeds after all?

The morality in doing good deeds from an atheist perspective is in primary motive, which is the main reason that someone does something e.g in helping an old lady across the street, sure someone could say that you are only helping them to make yourself feel better or to avoid the guilt of not having helped her, but the Primary motive that you did it is that you cared for her wellbeing.

The primary motive is the main reason that you did something and this is what matters the most.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Frivolous ]</p>

A3

Hi Corona688

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Although there is nothing wrong with applying the Golden Rule, I think it only levels the playing field, and does not involve spiritual growth. It only seems to remove the annoying bumps on the road. What I am missing in secular life is the equivalent to the concept “love the neighbor.”
To me that means doing something for someone else even if it means getting to work 30 seconds later. Would this be one “senseless, random act of kindness” that people talk about? But just like “what goes around comes around,” this seems shallow and hardly a way of life, a philosophy.
Would you agree that the bottom line still seems to be directed inward, towards the self?


Hi Frivolous

I know, that’s the way it is. As people we have to learn to be good and it is a life-long process. Just like the Israelites, first we almost have to be forced to obey and do the right thing (or else..). Hopefully, later we develop a habit of doing the right thing, and finally we do the right thing, not because we are afraid of hell but because we love doing it. Swedenborg calls these levels civil, moral and spiritual good, and has a lot to say about each.
He even goes so far as to say “people were not born for the sake of themselves, but for the sake of others.” Does this seem very far fetched to you? Utopian?
Absolutely right, no question about it. Professing to be Christian, in and by itself, does zilch. I very strongly believe that what we know is nothing compared to what we do with it. So conversely, being an atheist does not automatically make someone hell bound.
Never say never but indeed we’ll never be perfect. We also seem to agree on what makes something “good” judging by what you write in your next paragraph.
A deed can be looked at from two sides, from the doer and from the receiver. I believe that a basically selfish (evil) person can do a deed that is good for the receiver, but which is no good for the doer. It is the thought that counts, if the motive is selfish it is not a good deed.
A hospital doesn’t care who pays for the new wing. When it is there it is good for the hospital. But if the money is provided for the soul reason that one’s name is on the front, it is not good for the giver.
I realize that this might be regarded as a purely religious approach, you tell me. After all, many (atheists?) will argue that if the name on the building generates more business for the giver, which generates more income, more status, more work, etc. that’s good!
In any business setting it makes a difference in motivation if people know what the end-product is they are working on. I personally think that a lot of atheists would not be atheists if they knew they are holding the final product right in their own hands.

Regards
Adriaan

Corona688

What selfishness is implicit in 'Do upon others as you would have them do to you'? This is not mere tit-for-tat, going only so far as you are treated by others; this is advice to treat others BETTER than they treat you, with no qualificaitons attached.

As for 'love thy neighbor', it's too easy to work around that one; all you have to do is find some fiddly difference between you and your neighbor to decide that the Other is not your neighbor, and you can treat him however you like.

I prefer a Vulcan saying; 'The spear in the Other's heart is the spear in your own; you are he.' A constant reminder, and far more universal.

To be honest, I think you're just missing the religious baggage; that 'depth' you sense in Christian versions of these ancient posits isn't really so deep, when you realize they all come with an implicit 'or burn in hell.' Enlightened self-interest is much better, imho, than a system where people are made to be nice to each other with the threat of force.

Corona688

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify, please?

Hobbs

A rather cryptic statement, so I'll offer a cryptic response:

I personally think that a lot of theists would not be theists if they knew that they are deifying and worshipping their own subjective ideals of what a human should be.

For a cryptic explanation of that comment, think about why it is that in matters of morality, theology, politics, or whatever, God always invariably agrees with his followers, even though his followers so often and so vehemently disagree with each other. (Or, do you disagree with any of God's positions on morality, theology, or whatever?)

A3

Hi Corona688

Posted by A3:
“Although there is nothing wrong with applying the Golden Rule, I think it only levels the playing field, and does not involve spiritual growth. It only seems to remove the annoying bumps on the road.
What I am missing in secular life is the equivalent to the concept “love thy neighbor.”
To me that means doing something for someone else even if it means getting to work 30 seconds later. Would this be one “senseless, random act of kindness” that people talk about? But just like “what goes around comes around,” this seems shallow and hardly a way of life, a philosophy.
Would you agree that the bottom line still seems to be directed inward, towards the self?”
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I didn’t say there is anything selfish in the golden rule. Just that it levels the playing field. Do what your boss pays you for (and nothing more?). What I mean with “love thy neighbor” is “going beyond the call..” “Going the extra mile..” and this is the crux of the matter: without any thought of reward or even recognition. I readily admit, this does not come to us automatically and I think can only be tought, but that is just my opinion.
But I hope you will agree with me that this is not being honest. As Swedenborgians we believe that what is refered to as “the neighbor” is the good in any other person.
That ‘system’ is on the child level. We all have to learn (forced!) to share. As I said in my post: “first we almost have to be forced to obey and do the right thing (or else..). Hopefully, later [in life] we develop a habit of doing the right thing, and finally we do the right thing, not because we are afraid of hell but because we love doing it.”
BTW what about hell scares you?? You don’t believe it exists, right?

Posted by A3:
“I personally think that a lot of atheists would not be atheists if they knew they are holding the final product right in their own hands.”
C688: “I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify, please?”
A: Well, it relates to the sentence before, like so:
“In any business setting it makes a difference in motivation if people know what the end-product is they are working on. I personally think that a lot of atheists would not be atheists if they knew they are holding the final product right in their own hands.”
Would you listen to a lecture, read a text etc. any different if you knew you would be tested on it? Would you love your partner any different if you thought it all ended at death, or if you knew it continued to eternity? And that is my whole premise; how different would you live your life if you believed this life is not all there is but goes on? That might be a very difficult “what if” to postulate on..... You want to give it a try?


Hello Hobbs

H: “A rather cryptic statement [see above], so I'll offer a cryptic response:
I personally think that a lot of theists would not be theists if they knew that they are deifying and worshipping their own subjective ideals of what a human should be.
A: As you quoted me before: “However, it seems important what we base our sense of right or wrong on.” I don’t base mine on my “own subjective ideals” but on the ‘Three Testaments’ and I didn’t write them. Come to think of it, what do you think an ideal human should be and what do you base that on?

No, I fully agree with Him. But I hear what you are saying. People think God always invariably agrees with[them], they even think He blesses their guns! I believe that anyone who honestly! and sincerely! believes something and applies that in their life will never know what hell is like. So you’ll never hear me say: “if you don’t believe as I do, you’ll end-up in hell.” That’s rubbish (just like so many things about hell, or heaven for that matter)And sorry if things appeared 'cryptic' that was certainly not the intend.

Regards
Adriaan

Corona688

You've got it backwards. The Golden Rule says to do towards others as you'd like to be treated yourself, not do unto others as others do unto you!

Yes. Yes it is.

That's a whole subject in of itself, which I'm not sure I'm qualified to argue for or against; but again: Why throw in the GodJesus baggage? What is the point in offering people an eternal carrot and stick they'll never get? People aren't that gullible!

Second, I don't see anything in the Bible that rescinds the 'be good or be tortured eternally' clause no matter how mature you are. The system treats EVERYONE like children.

I'm not afraid of a nonexistent place; that would be an appaling waste of time and emotional energy. It is that there are people that believe in eternal torture, and believe it is just, that I find frightening.

Starboy

Frivolous, I can’t help but wonder why you are here? From what I see around me I suspect that there will be far more Christians in hell than atheists. Perhaps you should direct your ministrations to your fellow Christians.

Starboy