HelenM

I suppose I might have inadvertently mentioned it once or twice but I think I got away with it

What is 'the gospel', anyway, David? Why don't you tell me, then I can judge better whether I have talked to them about it or not. And if you don't care to tell me then evidently it doesn't really matter anything to you whether the atheists here are talked to about it, or not...in which case I will wonder why you even asked the question...

love
Helen

TooBad

*chuckle*

David Mathews

Hello Keith Russell,

David: No one can know. Certainty is not available to humans. That is why humans must believe ... and all humans do believe.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Helen,

David: The gospel is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Love,

David Mathews

HelenM

Then how does one 'obey' the life, death and resurrection of Jesus?

Quoting you from another thread in another forum:

But above, you said

If certainty is not available to us, why did you tell Diana that she would certainly go to hell if she didn't obey the gospel?

love
Helen

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

hinduwoman

David, if everyone is saved by God's grace, then why should atheism matter? God might decide to take atheists into heaven while sending you off to hell.

Since you by your own acknowledgement do not know certainly about God's plan, keep in mind this too is a possibility.

Xyzzy

Because of the nature of the question.

If a purpose implies or requires being a part of some sort of a higher plan, then God's plan is supposedly the top one. Therefore God's plan has no purpose.

But if you admit that God can provide his own purpose for existence, then human beings can do the same, and we don't need God to explain purpose for us.


It is not separate and distinct from the initial origin of "purpose". One is a direct result of the other through evolutionary adaptation.

What this means is that the primary need that humans have is to feel secure, to feel connected to other human beings, to have family, and to experience success in their endeavors. Religion short circuits these evolved drives and needs, similar to the way acohol or drugs short circuits our pleasure centers.

Religion is not a natural part of our mental makeup, and it is resorted to (and I would argue practically exclusively) when these emotional needs are not be filled by legitimate activities that fulfill these needs.

You'll notice that is the most emotionally needy that tend to be susceptible to conversion. This is because these emotional drives are not being fulfilled by that person. If the person is not socially connected, does not feel secure, does not have a family and is generally not professionally or socially successful, the "fix" offered by christian fellowship is hard to pass up.

But, of course, once you are hooked, you'll have an incredibly difficult time going cold turkey again.

MOJO-JOJO

Hello David,

She doesn't need to, David. Most of the atheists/agnostics/skeptics here have read and/or studied the gospels. In fact, many of us here then decided to go beyond that and have further investigated the claims of the bible and christianity in particular. This is what you are "not getting".

Many of us here have decided to learn from those who have preceded us, who also examined the gospels and religious history in great detail and for many years. These were theologians, pastors, etc, many of whom also stopped on "Faith Street" where you now reside, but then moved on in an effort to understand anything and everything they could about faith and religion. I am referring to people like Bishop Shelby Spong, Karen Armstrong, Farrell Till, Robert Price, Dan Barker, and most of the Associate Members of the Westar Institute (the Jesus Seminar).

From their investigations, they ultimately realized that it is nothing more than ancient myth elevated to reality in the minds of believers. It is nothing more than one of MANY belief systems that is not "real", but is a very important part of peoples' hopes, dreams, rituals, and traditions. These "believers" simply can not and WILL not give this belief up, it is an "embilical" cord that can not be severed without any damaging effects to their collective psychies. The "indoctrination" throughout their spiritual walk has taken up residence in every fiber of their being. They have been assimilated, and would be totally helpless without their "faith".

YOU are nothing more than one of those people, David, as I was for FIVE YEARS. I assert that YOU could NEVER exist apart from this belief system. You are much too indoctrinated in it, and you do not have the strength or the WILL to cast off this supersticious, bible-verse driven and obsessed life of yours.

You have NOTHING but anecdotal evidence to support what you believe, but you have the audacity to come here with your pithy little, anti-christ comments and implications, NO strong arguments, and just close your ears and eyes to just about EVERYthing that is said to you. I'm sorry to tell it like it is, David, but you are nothing but another silly little supersticious, christian robot, coming here with your pre-programed proselytizing. As everyone has noted, you are nothing more than a blind little troll that we are feeding.

Judas H. Priest! Now I know why Jesse Ventura and Ted Turner are so publicly pissed off at religion. THIS is what it does to people!

(The mind is such a terrible thing to waste. But then again, without the David Mathews of the world, lots of ministers would be on the streets with cardboard signs that read "Will Preach for Food")

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>

Adrian Selby

David, do you accept the possibility that you could be wrong, that there just might not be a God?

If not, from what do you derive your certainty that such a being exists? Is it merely the words in the Bible, is it a feeling you've had, a feeling of certainty?

Also, how do you know that the originator of the universe, if there is such a thing, and the God in the Bible are one and the same, when there are so many more deities to choose from?

MOJO-JOJO

David,

On a friendlier note, might I suggest that you begin with Charles Templeton's book;

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0771085087/ref=ase_templetonscom-20/002-3962058-1365660" target="_blank">Farewell to God</a>

He and Billy Graham were like Paul and Timothy, cruising around their world spreading the gospel message. But then HE woke up to the real truth in the late 50's and was an agnostic until his death in 2001.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>