BadBadBad

I agree with that, but since her little stab at me didn't include that caveat, I responded likewise. Be that good or bad, that's our deal. Don't cross that line with stabbing knives or expect to get treated likewise in return. That goes back to religion not being the issue but how we treat each other. In this case, we both treated each other badly, and I can't be real proud of it nor should she. I agree that we need to work on that deal a little.

seebs

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. If you want her to stop pushing religion at you, try just telling her (later, in private) that the religious comments hurt your feelings, because you want her to respect your right to your opinions. My wife used to be a bit of a bitch to me, but after the second or third time I told her it hurt me, she stopped completely. This was after years of fighting back.

It is very important to take this kind of thing up later, rather than, say, in front of others; that way, it's not an attack on her.

Try it, just a couple of times, and see if it doesn't help.

BadBadBad

No doubt about it, I see your point. We've reached a point after years of conflict, that pointy knives are the only thing keeping her on the other side of that line. Until she shows some respect for the line, it's going to be painful, one way or another, if she crosses it. I think we're making progress on learning how to deal with each other and boundaries without that. We're not their yet as you can see.

seebs

It might be worth bringing it up. Also note that the polite statement that she hurt you is actually, in a lot of ways, much more effective than any attack on her beliefs would be - she can't really resent you for it, she can't dismiss it as retaliation, she has to confront that she did something which hurt you, and which she knew would hurt you. Just MHO.

BadBadBad

I agree.

Ted Hoffman

I must say that IMHO, "There is no hell" is no less an opinion than "there is no invisible pink elephant" is an opinion.

To reduce the validity of arguments that oppose unscientific and illogical concepts like hell to mere opinions is tantamount to lending validity to such concepts.

IMO, it amounts to admission of ignorance to state that "I dont beleive in Hell". Better yet, just state that there is no evidence that hell exists. Because when you say "I dont", you implicitly create an opening for "I do", so it becomes a matter of opinion. Which it isnt.

Let the kids have a way of determining which is the logical position between the two by stating why you dont beleive in hell. They should know that atheism is not about waking up in the morning and deciding you dont beleive in God.

I agree with brettc's approach that religion should be left out of family issues because its a personal matter. I will try that with my fiancee - I have been occupying a passive position about this religious shit - she never brings it up when I am with her because I understand both the bible and science more than she does and I can pound any religious argument she brings up. But I have realized she relies heavily on what her relatives and parents will think - how I could make things difficult <drawing huge outrage and disaproval from them> by being open about my atheism. And I have since caved in to the threat, afraid of making a scene and of shocking people or making them uncomfortable. I decided I dont need to make my theism an issue for them because it doesnt have to be: they wont be marrying me.

Three weeks ago, her aunt invited us for dinner. When the table was set, her aunt asked me to pray.

Without batting an eye, I did:

"God please bless this food before we take it, Amen"
<four seconds, I beleive>

Strangely enough, it didnt bother me. I guess what mattered to me was where I stood with her. I thought I could do it for them - like a favour.

But perhaps it wasnt exactly honest?

HelenM

I think this is different from a situation when a Christian asks an atheist to say grace knowing the other person is an atheist.

In your case to say no would have been to admit to your atheism and as you wrote, you're aware that would have negative consequences in your relationships with your fiance's family.So you decided not to - I don't see what's wrong with that. I mean, do you have to tell them everything? No.

But, I expect other people here would be unwilling to say grace because they'd feel it was dishonest.

When you have strong reason to believe that being honest will have serious and negative consequences then that puts you in a difficult position. It's their sensitivity over the issue that puts you in it and if you aren't open then in effect you're adapting to the limitations they put on the situation. It's them, not you, that caused this dilemma and resulted in you not being open about your atheism. If people want others to be honest with them then it's up to them to make honesty feasible for the other person - imo.

You might want to read tdekeyser's thread about not wanting to be around his fiance's Christian family for more perspectives on dealing with this issue.

take care
Helen

Proxima Centauri

I see your problem, Vicar Philip. You don't want your wife arguing with you at home. Try not replying at once when your wife starts to argue or when an arrgument is in progress. That way tempers can cool down a bit.
By the way you seem to overhear quite a few uncomfortable things when your wife is on the phone. Does she want you to overhear them?

Ted Hoffman

She is communicating Vicar.

Vicar Philip

Not real sure what you're implying there, B. If you are accusing me of eavesdropping, come out and say it.

No, at the time I heard her she was on the phone sitting right next to me at her computer. I was on mine. I didn't confront her about saying it for obvious reasons. What other incidents are you referring to?