Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 12-08-2002, 01:09 PM

Looking through some Greek philosophy I've noticed that there are a lot of similarities between the two. Especially between Plato and the theology of the epistles. Basically, Plato's belief is that bodily existence is not that great, and leads to crimes...therefore the spirit is what one should seek for. They even use similar metaphors...any thoughts?

Greg2003 · 12-08-2002, 05:21 PM

Also, take a look at Philo of Alexandria. In some places he sounds just like Paul and just like the beginning of the gospel of john.

Sojourner553 · 12-08-2002, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel:
Looking through some Greek philosophy I've noticed that there are a lot of similarities between the two. Especially between Plato and the theology of the epistles. Basically, Plato's belief is that bodily existence is not that great, and leads to crimes...therefore the spirit is what one should seek for. They even use similar metaphors...any thoughts?

Oh my. Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's Jefferson on the topic:

Quote:

Jefferson believed that it was Platonic thought that had corrupted the original doctrines of Jesus Christ. Jefferson denounced Plato's REPUBLIC in 1814, saying:

"While wading through the whimsies, the puerilities and unintelligible jargon of this work, I laid it down often to ask myself how it could have been, that the world should have so long consented to give reputation to such nonsense as this? Fashion and authority apart, and bringing Plato to the test of reason, take from him his sophisms, futilities and incomprehensibilities and what remains? His foggy mind."

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/JEFFERSO.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/JEFFERSO.TXT</a>

A little history

Quote:

Alexandria During the times of the Roman Empire

In Alexandria and elsewhere, pagans of Greek descent carried on the tradition of science and philosophy (although this became more and more intertwined with Greek Platonic mysticism by the second century C.E.) Claudius Ptolemy, worked
and taught in Alexandria between 127-151 C.E. His encyclopedia of astronomy accumulated impressive data on the positions of the stars and planets using trigonometry. Indeed, his astrological measurements became the standard used in the West, until the times of Copernicus and Kepler. Although Ptolemy made important contributions in charting maps (such as by using observations based on latitude and longitude in his surveys)--at the same time, mystical beliefs and philosophy of the times, can also be seen in Ptolemy's treatise on astrology. For example, he believed that the earth was located at the center of the universe, and that the stars in the heavens could hold divine influence upon the actions of mankind.

As Neo-Platonist thought became popular during the second and third centuries C.E. through such philosophers as Plotinus of Alexandria (d 270 C.E.), Porphyry (d 300 DA) and Iamblichus (d 330 C.E.), philosophy became less and less concerned with scientific measurements and experiment-- and mystical ideals and concepts became increasingly popular. To Plotinus, the highest good was the contemplation of Plato's "Absolute" in heaven. In the writings
of Porphyry and Iamblichus, these mystical views regarding the divine in nature, were translated into the everyday belief in magical aids, sorcery, and astrology.

In this way, through the influence of Stoicism and Neoplatonism, many aristocratic pagans had migrated towards a form of monotheism, albeit one with a hierarchy of lesser deities and a supreme god at its top. Some of the early church Christian fathers lived in Alexandria, and were influenced by the powerful synthesis of Jewish, Platonic, and pagan currents of thinking from
these times (substituting angels and saints for the lesser deities). For example, Origen (around 185-254 C.E.) merged Christian doctrine with Platonic and Neo-Platonic thought--making Christianity more attractive to educated pagans
in the late second and third centuries C.E. (See Section V, Chapter 1).

By the late fourth century, Origen's liberal views on Christianity fell into disfavor, as Christian orthodoxy moved towards the far right. Alexandria became caught up in the midst of powerful political-social upheavals--as Christians, under various bishops, were determined to stamp out all pagan and Jewish influences.

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ALEXANDR.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/ALEXANDR.TXT</a>

and

Quote:

Movement from Plato's View of the Universe, to that of Aristotle's.

Prior to the rediscovery of ancient Greek and Roman writings in Western Europe, much of Christian thought (through the influence of St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others) was largely Greek Platonic in nature-- and placed emphasis on "faith" and revelation in everyday matters.

The Greek philosopher Aristotle, in contrast to Plato, had stressed the role of observation and reason--in addition to faith-- in conducting the search for meaning and truth in the universe. However, the writings of Aristotle were not revered in the West, and therefore religious monks did NOT preserve them by copying them. (Although Aristotle's writings did not exist
in the West, many works survived in the Christian Byzantine Empire, and from there into Muslim Arabic culture.)

Throughout history, it is often philosophy that defines the paradigm, or outlook of how people view themselves in relation to the universe. It is
therefore no overstatement to say that it was this shift in philosophy--from that of Plato to that of Aristotle-- that greatly influenced the return of secular learning in Western Europe! Plato, it will be recalled, stressed the perfectibility of the human soul, and mistrusted especially the senses and imagination in obtaining truth. Aristotle, on the other hand, attributed a higher value to the human faculties of the senses, imagination, and memory. This eventually laid down the groundwork for the return of poetry, philosophy, and finally even science.

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/DARKAGE2.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/DARKAGE2.TXT</a>

Hope this helps!

I'd also recommend this general essay:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/PHILOSO1.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/PHILOSO1.TXT</a>

Here is the main index.

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

Sojourner

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

Bobzammel · 12-09-2002, 04:24 PM

Looking through the dialogues again(I have not read the entire thing, sorry), I've noticed another correlation: the character states "I will serve God rather than men".
This is interestingly, in ACTS as well...
worded differently, but similar.

Boro Nut · 12-10-2002, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel:
Did Plato inspire Christianity?

I would say yes, otherwise they wouldn't have named a planet after him.

Boro Nut

CX · 12-10-2002, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel:
Looking through some Greek philosophy I've noticed that there are a lot of similarities between the two. Especially between Plato and the theology of the epistles. Basically, Plato's belief is that bodily existence is not that great, and leads to crimes...therefore the spirit is what one should seek for. They even use similar metaphors...any thoughts?

Pagan philosopher Celsus made similar observations more than 18 centuries ago. He even went so far as to say that Jesus' philosophy was but a shabby imitation of Plato. Check out "Contra Celsum" by Origen for more.

[Edited because I can do arithmetic]

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: CX ]

12-08-2002, 01:09 PM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Did Plato inspire Christianity? Looking through some Greek philosophy I've noticed that there are a lot of similarities between the two. Especially between Plato and the theology of the epistles. Basically, Plato's belief is that bodily existence is not that great, and leads to crimes...therefore the spirit is what one should seek for. They even use similar metaphors...any thoughts?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-08-2002, 05:21 PM	#2
Greg2003 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 167	Also, take a look at Philo of Alexandria. In some places he sounds just like Paul and just like the beginning of the gospel of john.

12-09-2002, 04:24 PM	#4
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Looking through the dialogues again(I have not read the entire thing, sorry), I've noticed another correlation: the character states "I will serve God rather than men". This is interestingly, in ACTS as well... worded differently, but similar.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.