Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tercel · 08-21-2002, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Splashing Colours Of Whimsy:
I have to agree with your friend, how can the omniscient Yahweh's avatar not know this? It seems possible to imagine that all of Yahweh's mental powers weren't possible for a human incarnation with a human brain, but at the very least he should have had the absolute maximum of human potential.

Jesus should have been able to teach relativity if he wanted to, the "lowly" Einstein was able to!

I guess you could say that Jesus wasn't designed for that, but regarding religious matters he should have certainly been infallible!

Jesus admits he doesn't know the time of his return, so clearly he was not Omniscient. In general the possibility of being wrong follows from not having complete knowledge. Yes Jesus might have been some sort of exception and it might have been the case that "all the things he did know, he knew correctly and knew he knew correctly"... but I see nothing that justifies that exception other than an IMO misguided desire (it's led to heresy in the past) to make Jesus as divine as possible. Therefore, until I see something that convinces me otherwise, I will assume that Jesus, not being omnscient, had the possibility of being honestly mistaken about some things.

NOGO · 08-24-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Rim
"The Bible" Refers to both the "old" and "new" testaments. Do you claim that the Pauline epistles, the book of Acts, and John's Revelation were all written and translated into Greek before the (supposed) birth of Jesus? Or did you eman the Old Testament had been written?

Further, that comment was in jest and hinges on a quibbling over terms (whether the Jews of the time accepted "the Bible" or the books of the OT as literal) and thus is not even important enough to form a full discussion over it. Why bother?

Maybe to you the Bible includes the NT but to Jesus the Bible was the Bible (ie the OT). It is clear that Jesus or the authors of the Gospels read the Jewish Bible and in particular the septuagint.

The question was indeed whether the Jews took their Bible as literal truth. That is when you claimed that the bible had not been written yet.

For the rest I don't know what you are talking about.

NOGO · 08-24-2002, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Tercel
Jesus admits he doesn't know the time of his return, so clearly he was not Omniscient.

Jesus said that he did not know the "day and hour", however, he stated that it would be within the generation of his time.

He was certainly not omniscient. He was dead wrong.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Tercel · 08-24-2002, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:
Jesus said that he did not know the "day and hour", however, he stated that it would be within the generation of his time.

I take it that you at least agree he existed. (Since he presumably must have existed if he said what you say he did)

I'm curious though how you can be so sure that he said what you say he did, and also that you can be so sure that he meant it the way you seem to think he did.

NOGO · 08-25-2002, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Tercel
I take it that you at least agree he existed. (Since he presumably must have existed if he said what you say he did)
I'm curious though how you can be so sure that he said what you say he did, and also that you can be so sure that he meant it the way you seem to think he did.

Did Jesus exist?
Which Jesus are we talking about?
If you mean the one as described in the Gospels then I would say no.

If, on the other hand, you admit that there are things in the gospels that are fictitious then I would say that I have no problem with an historical Jesus.

Frankly, I do not believe that Jesus, if he existed, actually said what is described in Matthew 24.

However, whoever wrote Mt24 meant to say that Jesus would return within that generation. Paul believed this as well, as did all early Christians.

Do you contest the fact that Mt24 says that the generation will not pass until all these things take place? Part of "all these things" was the end of the world and Jesus' return.

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