The AntiChris

So it's a "fact" that suicide is cowardly?

Do you personally find life so appalling that denying yourself the option of suicide is somehow heroic?

Or maybe you're completely incapable of understanding other's pain.

Chris

Sakpo

Thinking on the following 2 premises:

1) There is a difference between having the right to do something and it being morally right. I have the right to pick a verbal fight with my girlfriend of several years, who has always treated me very well, and scream and call her a whore, because I was feeling bored. It would be morally wrong to do so, however.

2) People can willingly accept duties that curtail their freedom to engage in some forms of behaviour/commit some acts while simultaneously being described as morally right. For instance, free people have the right to have consensual sex with other free people, but this can be curtailed as far as moral behaviour goes. An example of this would be willingly entering into a marriage where each partner willingly agreed to give exclusive sexual rights to the other (no sex with anybody else; monogamy). It would then be morally wrong for one to secretly have sex with someone else, even though generally speaking every free person capable of consent has the right to choose who to have sex with.

So, pretend you are a widowed mother in a third world country. Your life is crap. In your casem you willingly had children (let's say, two of them). You have no family who could take the kids if you died. There is no social safety net, if you died the kids might starve, or be forced into prostitution, or something similiar. As long as you're around you can scrape out a life for them, though you're miserable. I'd say it'd be morally wrong to commit suicide in that situation, despite your freedom to do so. That's just one example.

themistocles

Jutsuka, I don't share Bushido as a worldview, so I have no empathy for what the Japanese would consider "bravery". Perhaps one might say it's not cowardice because to be a coward is relevative to your mindset when faced with choices, but I think there's equal weight to say that cowardice is qualitatively acted upon when problems which necessarily must be faced are avoided.

So, no, my position stands.

yguy

Aw, go hug a terrorist.

Loren Pechtel

If you are leaving behind dependant children that you are capable of caring for then it's morally wrong, period.

Otherwise, I don't think either terminal illness nor great pain, let alone the combination, are required as justification. There are illnesses that while not terminal or painful can make life very unpleasant--consider ALS for example. If a rational look at the future (after the doctors have done whatever they can for you) says the net value of your remaining life is going to be negative I can't see how it's morally wrong to end it.

As for the door example--again it comes down to what your current situation is. Consider, for example, those that jump to their deaths to get away from fires. If you know there will be no rescue then it's the sensible thing to do--death by impact is far preferable to death by fire. And once in a while such a jumper survives.

yguy

excreationist does not appear to be facing such a Hobson's choice.

Thalia

I agree. I and my family all have battled with depression our whole lives. I know how mood disorders can be like a "delusion", a delusion that everything sucks and will never get better. Then a few weeks later, or even a year later, you look back and have no idea why you felt so hopeless.

I don't feel comfortable calling suicide morally wrong. I feel an extra urge to encourage the mentally ill not commit suicide, because I know I wouldn't want anyone to let me make that decision if it were due to my illness.

excreationist, I hope you are able to carry on. There is a good forum at depressionforums.com Lots of people to talk to.

Nowhere357

(Double post)

Nowhere357

In terms of your poll, I have two points to make.

First, you are aware making decisions (especially one like this!) while depressed, is not wise policy. However, it's possible a depressive state will ease, but not disappear. If I wished to kill myself, I would put it off as long as possible, and I WOULD NOT do it while at a low point.

Second, I disagree that one must either believe in the afterlife, or disbelieve in it. I do neither. That said, I choose "no afterlife" because there's no evidence that afterlife exists.

Peace

excreationist

Beer God:
But why do I have to? Or should I just assume that suicide is wrong - because it just is.

Sakpo:
What if they don't want to be a burden on others (e.g. they're old, etc)? Is that "pure self interest"?

LadyShea:
But maybe they made their choice and people have to learn to live with it. Kind of like a gay person's choice to "come out"... that might severely traumatize their ultra-conservative relatives - unless the relatives can get over it... it could be said that the gay person is "selfish" because they valued their feelings over that of their ultra-conservative family....

themistocles:
What if a person has isolated themselves a lot and is dependent on the government and has burned bridges to former friends? Their emotional impact on others and the government would benefit from them not being there....
Well what about people who are in a lot of pain and want to die... (e.g. the perfect euthanasia example) are they cowards? Are they scared of years of extreme pain? Or do they simply not prefer it? Assuming they are cowards to want to take the easy way out and end their pain, is that a wrong thing for them to want? The idea of cowardice being wrong is interesting... I wonder what the opposite thing is - maybe "taking risks" - because fear usually exists for a reason, and if you go against fears sometimes bad things can happen. (e.g. if you have social fears and you learn to be brave socially, there is a risk of offending someone, etc)

Loren Pechtel:
Well sometimes people kill their kids and then themselves - so that the kids don't have to deal with a world where the parent isn't there. And in most places the kids could get looked after by someone else - e.g. a relative or an orphanage or foster family, etc. In poor countries they could help support themselves by working. (Kids often do that I think)
Well let's say they waited a while until their kids left home and didn't need money from their parents... then could suicide be ok? (assuming they weren't in great pain or had a terminal illness)

Thalia:
"Carry on" is what it seems like sometimes... but I am wondering if I really "have to"....

Nowhere357:
I'm not planning on doing anything soon, but anyway, if I avoided doing anything while at a low point, there would be no reason to ever kill myself. (Except to avoid future low points - though the present time would be ok)
The poll doesn't say "I believe that there is no afterlife" - it says "I don't believe in an afterlife". i.e. simply a lack of belief in an afterlife rather than an explicit belief that there is no afterlife. So the poll actually matches your beliefs. I think that everyone either holds a belief in the afterlife or doesn't explicitly hold a belief in it...