Freethought & Rationalism Archive

UnaffiliatedOld · 05-08-2002, 08:06 AM

I was recently having a disussion concerning the ten commandments, and the other person said that the sixth commandment was thou shall not murder, not thou sall not kill.

Does anyone know which is actually correct?

Thanks

Jim

wordsmyth · 05-08-2002, 08:15 AM

From what little I have studied the early Greek texts use "Thou shalt not kill". This causes a big internal error with many other events in the bible and so it was changed to "Thou shalt not murder" in an attempt by biblicists to cover up this erroneous error.

In fact there are many instances in which words were changed, deleted, new words/phrases added that don't match early texts. Some instances can be dismissed as poor translation, but others are obvious attempts to harmonize the bible and get rid of many discrepancies and inconsistencies.

Edited to add:
Many modern translations differ, so it really depends on which one you are reading from. The verse is Exodus 20:13 and you can look it up by different bible versions <a href="http://http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible" target="_blank">here</a>

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: wordsmyth ]

CX · 05-08-2002, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wordsmyth:
From what little I have studied the early Greek texts use "Thou shalt not kill". This causes a big internal error with many other events in the bible and so it was changed to "Thou shalt not murder" in an attempt by biblicists to cover up this erroneous error.

In fact there are many instances in which words were changed, deleted, new words/phrases added that don't match early texts. Some instances can be dismissed as poor translation, but others are obvious attempts to harmonize the bible and get rid of many discrepancies and inconsistencies.

Edited to add:
Many modern translations differ, so it really depends on which one you are reading from. The verse is Exodus 20:13 and you can look it up by different bible versions <a href="http://http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible" target="_blank">here</a>

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: wordsmyth ]

It matters little what Greek translations like the LXX say, we should be looking at the Hebrew text. Unfortunately I'm not much use for Hebrew. Perhaps Spin is lurking around here and could answer this question. My understanding has always been that the Hebrew text reads "thou shalt not commit murder", but I could be completely wrong.

wordsmyth · 05-08-2002, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX:
My understanding has always been that the Hebrew text reads "thou shalt not commit murder", but I could be completely wrong.

I could be completely wrong as well because I don't know much about the Hebrew texts, I've only looked at the Greek on which most modern translations are based. I'm certain I have opened a can of worms, though.

ShottleBop · 05-08-2002, 11:10 AM

All of the commentaries I have ever read that were written for a Jewish audience (including a new translation/commentary by Richard Elliott Friedman, author of "Who Wrote the Bible)) are clear that the Hebrew proscribes "murder."

wordsmyth · 05-08-2002, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ShottleBop:
All of the commentaries I have ever read that were written for a Jewish audience (including a new translation/commentary by Richard Elliott Friedman, author of "Who Wrote the Bible)) are clear that the Hebrew proscribes "murder."

Not that I doubt you or Mr. Friedman, but do you have a link to an image of the original Hebrew text so that I could verify this. I guess its just the skeptic in me.

Haran · 05-08-2002, 01:01 PM

The difference is in the Hebrew. In Hebrew, it is "Thou shalt not murder" and in translation it was turned into "Thou shalt not kill". Unfortunately, I don't have my texts in front of me at the moment. Perhaps I can respond with more at a latter time.

BTW, if Devnet is around, he is more intimately familiar with Hebrew than myself or Spin.

Haran

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]

ShottleBop · 05-08-2002, 01:11 PM

"Link to an image of the original Hebrew text"? The received Hebrew text is the Masoretic text, about which you can read here: <a href="http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-94.html" target="_blank">http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-94.html</A> and here: <a href="http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-97.html" target="_blank">http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-97.html</A>

This is a link to a lexicon of the Old Testament Hebrew, indicating the word used in Exodus 20:13 is Strong's Concordance no. 7523, having the meanings indicated. Click on the link to the one instance of its use in Exodus for its use in context (in the 10 Commandents).

<a href="http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=07523&version=nas&type=str&submit=F ind" target="_blank">http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=07523&version=nas&type=str&submit=F ind</A>

This is a link to the Hebrew text (in various versions):

<a href="http://www.breslov.com/ref/Exodus20.htm" target="_blank">http://www.breslov.com/ref/Exodus20.htm</A>

Here is a link to the Blue Letter Bible's version of the text (KJV, which uses the word "kill", but which contains an image of the Hebrew word as it would appear in a Torah, and a link to Strong's concordance, as well): <a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1020893654.html#13" target="_blank">http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1020893654.html#13</A>

ShottleBop · 05-08-2002, 02:07 PM

The discussion at this link is balanced, and indicates that some Jewish commentators have argued that the Hebrew word involved should be read to include all homicides:

<a href="http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html" target="_blank">http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html</a>

Excerpt:

Quote:

This still raises some difficult questions about the Latin Vulgate translation [which translated the word as "kill"]. The author of that translation, Saint Jerome (died in 420), spent much of his career in the Land of Israel, where he consulted frequently with Jewish scholars whose interpretations he often cites with great respect. Even the Septuagint, the old Greek translation of the Bible, translated the commandment with a word that means "murder" rather than "kill." St. Augustine, basing himself on the standard translations, made it clear that the commandment does not extend to wars or capital punishment that are explicitly ordained by God.

The fact remains, however, that even the Jewish translators were not unanimous in maintaining a consistent distinctions between the various Hebrew roots.

Don Isaac Abravanel and others noted that ratsah is employed in Numbers 35:27-30 both when dealing with an authorized case of blood vengeance, and with capital punishment--neither of which falls under the legal category of murder.

In fact, some distinguished Jewish philosophers believed that "thou shalt not kill" is a perfectly accurate rendering of the sixth commandment. Maimonides, for example, wrote that all cases of killing human beings involve violations of the command, even if the violation happens to be overridden by other mitigating factors. It has been suggested that this tradition underlies the virtual elimination of capital punishment in Rabbinic law.

Viewed from this perspective, we may appreciate that the translation "thou shalt not kill" was not the result of simple ignorance on the side of Jerome or the King James English translators. Rather, it reflects their legitimate determination to reflect accurately the broader range of meanings of the Hebrew root.

As usual, careful study teaches us that what initially appeared ridiculously obvious is really much more complex than it seemed at first glance. We should be very cautious before passing hasty judgement on apparent bloopers.

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: ShottleBop ]

wordsmyth · 05-08-2002, 02:39 PM

ShottleBop,

Thanx for the links. It would appear that this is another case in which not even Jewish scholars can agree. In the last link, both sides bring up interesting points, but as you say, its a balanced argument and not conclusive either way.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a bible scholar, but based on what I do know of the bible and the context of Exodus 20:1-26 I believe "Thou shalt not kill" is an accurate translation.

My reasoning for this is based on the rest of the commandments which are worded very straight forward and very matter-of-factly for which there doesn't seem to be nearly as much contention over the actual meaning. For instance, most people agree that EX 20:15 means "Thou shalt not steal" even though this is also contradictory with certain events. It makes no distinction between stealing in general and plundering ones enemies, so I'm doubtful a distinction was meant between killing in general and murder.

If it weren't for the straight forward wording of the other commandments, I might be inclined to agree with "Thou shalt not murder" as a possibility.

05-08-2002, 08:15 AM	#2
wordsmyth Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Des Moines, Ia. U.S.A. Posts: 521	From what little I have studied the early Greek texts use "Thou shalt not kill". This causes a big internal error with many other events in the bible and so it was changed to "Thou shalt not murder" in an attempt by biblicists to cover up this erroneous error. In fact there are many instances in which words were changed, deleted, new words/phrases added that don't match early texts. Some instances can be dismissed as poor translation, but others are obvious attempts to harmonize the bible and get rid of many discrepancies and inconsistencies. Edited to add: Many modern translations differ, so it really depends on which one you are reading from. The verse is Exodus 20:13 and you can look it up by different bible versions <a href="http://http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible" target="_blank">here</a> [ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: wordsmyth ]</p>

05-08-2002, 01:01 PM	#7
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	The difference is in the Hebrew. In Hebrew, it is "Thou shalt not murder" and in translation it was turned into "Thou shalt not kill". Unfortunately, I don't have my texts in front of me at the moment. Perhaps I can respond with more at a latter time. BTW, if Devnet is around, he is more intimately familiar with Hebrew than myself or Spin. Haran [ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]</p>

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05-08-2002, 08:06 AM	#1
UnaffiliatedOld Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 105	Help with 10c translation I was recently having a disussion concerning the ten commandments, and the other person said that the sixth commandment was thou shall not murder, not thou sall not kill. Does anyone know which is actually correct? Thanks Jim

05-08-2002, 11:10 AM	#5
ShottleBop Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 77	All of the commentaries I have ever read that were written for a Jewish audience (including a new translation/commentary by Richard Elliott Friedman, author of "Who Wrote the Bible)) are clear that the Hebrew proscribes "murder."

05-08-2002, 01:11 PM	#8
ShottleBop Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 77	"Link to an image of the original Hebrew text"? The received Hebrew text is the Masoretic text, about which you can read here: <a href="http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-94.html" target="_blank">http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-94.html</A> and here: <a href="http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-97.html" target="_blank">http://www.bible-researcher.com/e02-97.html</A> This is a link to a lexicon of the Old Testament Hebrew, indicating the word used in Exodus 20:13 is Strong's Concordance no. 7523, having the meanings indicated. Click on the link to the one instance of its use in Exodus for its use in context (in the 10 Commandents). <a href="http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=07523&version=nas&type=str&submit=F ind" target="_blank">http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=07523&version=nas&type=str&submit=F ind</A> This is a link to the Hebrew text (in various versions): <a href="http://www.breslov.com/ref/Exodus20.htm" target="_blank">http://www.breslov.com/ref/Exodus20.htm</A> Here is a link to the Blue Letter Bible's version of the text (KJV, which uses the word "kill", but which contains an image of the Hebrew word as it would appear in a Torah, and a link to Strong's concordance, as well): <a href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1020893654.html#13" target="_blank">http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1020893654.html#13</A>

05-08-2002, 02:39 PM	#10
wordsmyth Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Des Moines, Ia. U.S.A. Posts: 521	ShottleBop, Thanx for the links. It would appear that this is another case in which not even Jewish scholars can agree. In the last link, both sides bring up interesting points, but as you say, its a balanced argument and not conclusive either way. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a bible scholar, but based on what I do know of the bible and the context of Exodus 20:1-26 I believe "Thou shalt not kill" is an accurate translation. My reasoning for this is based on the rest of the commandments which are worded very straight forward and very matter-of-factly for which there doesn't seem to be nearly as much contention over the actual meaning. For instance, most people agree that EX 20:15 means "Thou shalt not steal" even though this is also contradictory with certain events. It makes no distinction between stealing in general and plundering ones enemies, so I'm doubtful a distinction was meant between killing in general and murder. If it weren't for the straight forward wording of the other commandments, I might be inclined to agree with "Thou shalt not murder" as a possibility.

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