Buffman

(NOTE: I suspect that the Moderators for this forum may be getting a little, justifiably, antsy with our discussion. I would be pleased, after this post, to carry it to e-mail if you think the subject matter warrants further dialogue. Otherwise, back to the Chuch-State trenches.)

Rev. Joshua

Thank you for the very thoughtful response. I agree with each of your comments concerning what is supposed to be, and how it is today. I hope you won't mind, if only for the sake of further analysis in relation to Church-State conflicts, I attempt to put my spin on what you have said.

The chaplaincy corps in the military does recognize and represent the pluralism in the U.S.

The chaplaincy corps in the military does recognize and "attempt" to represent the pluralism in the U.S. Do they all do this with equal ability and success? If not, why not? Can they, with integrity, provide the kind of counsel, support or comfort to those individuals in need who do not believe in any transcendental reality outside of the natural world? I sincerely doubt that they can without being obvious hypocrites in the mind of the person(s) being counseled...or simply ineffectual as counselors.

- and Chaplains are trained to encourage and foster that kind of pluralism.

Is the supernatural belief system standardized? Is one belief system interoperable with another with no loss of efficiency or effectiveness? How does a Chaplain training program rationalize these historical, and obviously significant, differences in dogma without making a specific faith belief seem like a Dime Store purchase? Are there no Chaplains who sincerely believe that biblical creation is the only possibility for the presence of the human species, or that the Bible is inerrant word divinely inspired? How does a Chaplain who does not believe in evolution counsel someone who does? Or counsel someone who sincerely believes that all holy texts are merely the manifestations of human creativity concerning their fears and superstitions...and based on the extent of human knowledge some 2,000+ years ago? I understand that Chaplains are important to the military commander for the maintenance of morale within a pluralistic unit. If one were not capable of helping to maintain or promote pluralistic morale (esprit de corps), he/she would be off the base by sundown. Obviously, based on the earlier posts to this string, some Chaplains failed, or simply ignored, their pluralism course....yet continue to receive full recognition and financial support from our government.

There are plenty of chaplains who are perfectly comfortable with, and trained in supporting, the kind of agnostic spirituality that you describe...

"Agnostic spirituality?" What is that? Are you attempting to define my comment about there being an animating "something" between life and death that we do not, as yet, completely understand? Something that might be labeled "The Spark of Life?" Or are you speaking of that so far unexplained something that allows living things to "seemingly" reach beyond their "normal" physical limits? If so, I rather like your choice of phrase. Unfortunately, I view it as applicable only to the natural world while you view it as applicable to the supernatural. (i.e.: Not knowing if there is a God or not.) You have faith that spirit is a gift of a supernatural entity. My current "guess" is that it is a property stemming from (caused by) a combination of bio-chemo-electrical interfaces within an environment yet to be determined. (Perhaps one associated with the original radio-active conditions of this specific planet after its formation approximately 4 1/2 billion years ago. Conditions that we may never be able to duplicate again.) That's why I don't know. I have thoroughly investigated the religious explanations and found them all wanting. However, regardless, I accept that there is something within living organisms that can be expressed with the symbol..."spirit." I simply have no requirement to make up a whole supernatural world to accept that observation. How would a pluralistic Chaplain deal with someone who believes that the Chaplain lacks the appropriate knowledge, or sincere honesty, to be helpful rather than merely exacerbating the problem situation?

(I can think of one friend who's an Air Force Major and very capable in this regard).

I can think of lots of friends who are capable of lots of things, but they aren't spread throughout the U.S.Military by government edict and financial support. Please consider just how hypocritical it really is to have a Christian Chaplain preach the 10 Commandments to base personnel and then bless soldiers to go out and kill the enemy. It is a ludicrous dichotomy that is rationalized by most of the Chaplains I have known.

The only folks who could neither serve as Chaplains nor connect with the value of their services...

Please stop right there. That is a completely subjective belief based of your own dogma.

... would be those who categorical deny the existence of a transcendant reality outside of what is represented by materialsim (in the philosophical - not the cultural - sense).

And exactly who got to make that subjective determination? Theists! Certainly not all philosophers or any other critical thinking individual. Theists establish the rules that will protect their artificial empires. That is why they seek the assistance/collusion of governments to promote their dogma/faith beliefs rather than relying on their specific supernatural entities for the desired assistance and sought after results. (Personally, I think that is one of the primary factors behind our current Church-State problems. The current theists in charge of our government are some of the biggest materialists to ever serve in an elected federal republic government. They appear to be driven by both theological philosophies and cultural materialism. (Another dichotomy?)

Those folks are of course free not to use the Chaplain's services, and most Commanders should be familiar with the additional options available to them.

And I don't have to say "under God" in the Pledge. You miss the point!

In my experience, people who fall into that category are even more rare in the military than they are in the general populace.

I spent over 20 years there. I am more inclined to say that, since the military is a socialist organization structured on a hierarchy of rank, there are just as many that fall into "that" category in the military as there are in the general public...maybe even more because of the nature of the realities of war. They simply fear that their families and careers will be effected if they do anything to disturb the "established" norms...like being publicly non-theistic and outspoken about their personal beliefs. In fact, they are forced to compromise their integrity in order to maintain the theistically established norms of our supposedly secular government.

Of my many good friends who are atheists, I can only think of one or two who might qualify and my guess is that the same would be true of the self-identified atheists in the military.

When were the first Muslim Chaplains commissioned? Budhist? Wiccan? Hindu? Non-theist? New Age? Now, what is the percentage of Jewish Chaplains. How many are Orthodox, Conservative or Reform? How many Christian Chaplains? Catholic? Protestant, by denomination? I imagine that those statistics exist someplace. If all religions are interchangeable in their ministrations to military personnel, why are there so many different sects/denominations/cults in the civilian community? Obviously our military forces are not reflective of our pluralistic society when it comes to religious, or non-religious, expressions of individual conscience. However, to their great and everlasting credit, most military Chaplains do the best they can in a closed society. (That is why there is a civil and military code of justice. The military is not a democratic organization...nor are most of the Christian organizations.)

Rusting Car Bumper

This is absolutely not true.

Some UU Ministers and Church of Freethought members are atheists.

Given that UUers are trained to religiously tolerant, a UU minister would fit in very well in a pluralistic environment.

DC

cartman

"He blesses the boys as they stand in line
The smell of gun grease and their bayonets they shine
He's there to help them all that he can
To make them feel wanted--he's a good holy man."
"He smiles at the young soldiers, tells them it's all right
He knows of their fear in the forthcoming fight
Soon there'll be blood and many will die
Mothers and fathers back home they will cry"
"He mumbles a prayer, and it ends with a smile
The order is given, they move down the line
But he'll stay behind and he'll meditate
But it won't stop the bleeding or ease the hate"
"As the young men move out into the battle zone
He feels good, with God you're never alone
He feels so tired and he lays on his bed
Hopes the men will find courage in the words he just said"
"Sky Pilot, how high can you fly?
You'll never...never...never reach the sky."

-Eric Burdon and the Animals

Sabine Grant

When troops deploy in areas where there is no existing spiritual representatives, who can assume the role of assisting a catholic in his last rites for example ? If I find the presence of Chaplains unnecessary onboard military installations overseas in countries where one can find free exercise of their religion, it is a necessity to have RPs or Chaplains to provide the exercise of religion to deployed troops.

In Naples, we could attend several english speaking churches representing various christian denominations.American evangelical and catholic missions are present throughout Europe.

The difficulty comes for Armed forces members of other denominations and religions.I met only one LDS Chaplain. The Rabbi we had was rotating thru the Med including 6th Fleet Ships.

If we supress totaly the presence of military Chaplains, we end up depriving religious servicemembers from the rites and practices of their religion while deployed or in isolated areas where the governement of the host country forbids the practice of religion outside the camp or base ( such as Koweit or Saudi Arabia).

Somewhere there must be a just balance to accomodate both sides.

Can the presence of a Chaplain boast the morale of a religious servicemember in combat condition ? I believe yes. Should a soldier be given the opportunity to die in what represents to him a peaceful way to approach death? I believe yes.

atheist_in_foxhole

My tax dollars are paying for this shit?!

diana

I've thought for some time that if military chaplains can be justified, then we need atheist chaplains in the military, as well.

Here's why.

The main job of a military chaplain may be called "spiritual advice," but in reality it is personal counseling. If you are having family problems, you go to a chaplain. If you're depressed, you're sent to a chaplain. If you're contemplating suicide, go talk to your chaplain. If it's anything personal--you're sent to chat with the padre.

But what if you're convinced there is no god, you've very depressed, and you need someone to talk with who will listen and understand?

I could make a case that the more upset you are in your atheism--and people leaving their religious beliefs tend to be--the more you need to talk to someone who can honestly reassure you that it's okay if you don't believe and you still have things to live for.

Now that I've said all that, why doesn't the military just trash the whole "chaplain" thing and just hire professional counsellors, for the love of Xst?

d

Sabine Grant

DIANA : probably because secular counseling can be different from religious counseling. What is the purpose of a counselor? to help someone sort out their emotions so their mind can focus on the issues at hand. Take grieving for example. A christian who lost a dear one will be uplifted by the thought that the person went to "be with God". If that is what will help them overcome pain and move on, secular counseling will not necessarly help.
Spirituality is part of many people's lives. Spiritual counseling has some qualities to a spiritual person.
Let the secular individuals seek secular counseling as it works for them. And religious counseling will work equaly for religious individuals.
The Navy has ample Family Services Centers who offer secular counseling. From my time as as Navy wife I never met a navy member or dependent who was ordered by the chain of Command to attend mandatory religious counseling. That a soldier on the field may be referred to a Chaplain as he deals with a difficult issue, it is understandable as all Chaplains are trained to provide counseling to armed forces.
Should a Chaplain set aside his religious convictious to help a non theist member.... absolutly. And I believe most try to do so (at least that was my experience). Should he preach his religion from the pulpit in a military chapel to religious individuals who came with full consent, absolutly yes.

If we pertain in the US to uphold the freedom of religion and the country has to relocate religious individuals in areas where religious practices are not available, it is the Government's responsibility to provide means for those religious individuals to conduct their practices.The same way the Armed forces will provide medical care to their deployed members.

Banning Chaplains and RPs from interacting with the troops, in my sense would constitute a violation of the freedom of religion.

Religion is a form of individual expression and it is protected by the US Constitution.

I do not like the idea of my taxes supporting various governmental enterprises. But I must consider that it is my responsibility to aknowledge that other individuals 'taxes pay for programs I benefit from even as they dislike paying for them. That is the idea of democracy. for the people by the people and guess what..... we are a vast people with great differences.

I would support a legislation which revises the need to have military chapels in areas where religious services are available on the economy and therefor also religious counseling. But to bann Chaplains and RPs... no. That is extreme.

diana

Good afternoon, Sabine.

I popped out and glanced through a couple of AF regs on the chaplain corps, and acknowledge that, given the large numbers of superstitious people in the military, it's a good idea to provide them chaplains as necessary when they're sent somewhere chaplains aren't readily available (i.e., deployed, remote or at sea). If it makes them feel better about themselves and their place in the world, I figure it's a small price to pay.

But why are we paying for an on-station Southern Baptist chaplain at Fort Gordon? Are there not enough in Augusta proper? (I use this as a ferinstance, from personal experience.)

I'll have to check into the Family Service Centers and what they offer. I've never heard of anybody being sent to Family Services if they're having family problems or contemplating suicide, though.

Good, because that would be an obvious violation of the member's religious freedom. These things are done as recommendations.

I don't know what I said that made you think I was suggesting chaplains be "banned from interacting with troops," but I say that. Troops are free to pursue their own religious beliefs, so long as their religious practices do not compromise or interfere with the mission.

Really? Wow. Learn something new every day. I felt like I was missing some vital fact, but couldn't put my finger on it. Now I feel complete. Thank you.

The idea of democracy is to benefit from programs that other people's taxes pay for? I'm doing it right, then.

Yes, but I doubt that would happen. Nobody's going to touch the collars. The sacred is still respected and feared.

But I think you're right about sending chaplains and such with personnel to serve their religious needs when they're out of pocket. If I'm deployed with a bunch of believers who are lonely, bored, disgruntled, depressed and armed to the teeth, I'd feel much more comfortable if there was a shaman for them to go talk with.

d

Liquidrage

I will agree with diana on this one.

You do not go to counseling while on Active Duty.
You are opening up a whole new can of worms if you go see a professional or counselor.

The chaplins give you a confidentiality that does not exist elsewhere. It is more then common for military members to have talks with the chaplins that are off records. From discussing depression to drug abuse, a chaplin is a free source of advice and comfort.
Counselors keep documented records of who stops by and why.

Cipher Girl

Unless the chaplain decides to tattle, which has been known to happen. I remember reading a story some years back of someone who lied about some minor drug use when they were in high school. He went to a chaplain because he felt guilty. Guess who turned him in?