Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Old Man · 03-11-2003, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blondegoddess
[B]I also would like to know to which tradition of Wicca to which you refer. I cannot see how the violence you described is evident in the Wiccan Reed:"An it harm none, do what ye will."

I know that wiccans don't claim directly to harm people (as opposed to black magic/voodoo which does), but then neither do many muslims purport to harm people. Most people would see wicca as ancient black magic with the harm elements removed, just like modern Isalm is anicent Islam with the harm element removed.

Wiicca & Islam also have this in common, that neither believe in "original sin" (by that I mean, the human's inherent sinfulness from birth - not transmission).

From http://www.islamonline.net/askabouti...uestionID=3820

Islam regards the concept of �original sin� and the need for atonement by God Himself - via dying on the Cross - as a pure invention of those who came after Jesus Christ, declaring themselves as Christians.

From http://www.americanwicca.com/faq/faq07.html

But we have no concept of original sin for which we must be redeemed

So the essence of the similarity is that both fail to perceive the inherent sinfulness of man, and see no need of any sacrifice of redemption for the forgiveness of sins. Obviously their opinions diverge at some stage, but it is noticeable how the lack of belief in a need for forgiveness gives rise to a propensity for sexually immoral behaviour in both cases.

Its difficult to take wicca seriously. For instance, the above web site claims "[original sin] has been the source of oppression and even killing of women for centuries", but it is undeniable that the very same "oppression of women" (as wiccans would term it) as practiced by Islam is not accompanied by any belief in original sin.:banghead:

Jack the Bodiless · 03-11-2003, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Wiicca & Islam also have this in common, that neither believe in "original sin" (by that I mean, the human's inherent sinfulness from birth - not transmission).

As "original sin" is a specifically Christian concept, I don't find this surprising.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-11-2003, 08:12 AM

Old Man, did you actually bother to READ the article that you quoted from?

Here's what it says next:

Quote:

But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:

1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann)

2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations.

3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.

4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.

Some more snippets:

Quote:

Not one of Hitler's table talk conversations were recorded or captured by audio, film, or broadcast on radio...

...Should we take it as simply coincidence that the church denouncements by Hitler in the Table-Talk parallel the anti-church sentiments of Martin Bormann, but nowhere else?

Martin Bormann served as the instigator, fuel, and reason for the perception of many Christians that Nazism was against Christianity. Many times, quotes attributed to Hitler are actually Bormann's. It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission...

...In the Secret Conversations with Hitler, two recently discovered confidential interviews were given by Richard Breiting in 1931. Breiting was a member of the German People's Party. In these conversations, (which were actually more private than the Table-Talk), Hitler reveals his aims and plans. Like the Table-Talk, the notes were taken in short-hand. Unlike the Table-Talk, which Hitler knew would later be revealed, Hitler was assured that his statements would be kept secret...

...In Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant, Hitler reveals himself through conversation to colleagues from a conference on economic policy. In it Hitler is reported to have spoken, glowingly, about raising the "treasures of the living Christ," "the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man and to turn away from the anti-Christian , smug individualism of the past," and "to educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!"

And it goes on, and on...

"Hitler's Table Talk" has about as much credibility as the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"!

Hitler WAS a Christian!

Jackalope · 03-11-2003, 08:35 AM

Jesus H. Christ on a frigging roller skate! Shut up about Hitler already. It's offtopic. Go make another thread if you want to do the Hitler thing Yet Again.

Jackalope · 03-11-2003, 08:55 AM

For syncretic religions (means the elements were borrowed with some sort of design in mind and there's a cultural context for it), I can think of:
Vodou, Rada (Haiti) : Dahomey and catholicism
Vodou, Petro: kongo, indian and catholicism
Vodou, Nago: yoruba, dahomey and catholicism

Regalia de Ocha (Cuba): yoruba and catholicism
Palo (Cuba): kongo and catholicism

Condomble (Brazil) yoruba, kongo and catholicism

memory is going...I'm trying to remember exactly the details on Shango Baptists. I think that's West Indies.

There's at least one variety of pentacostals in Louisiana who are known as "Sand Dancers." Appears to have Kongo and Dahomey elements.

Oh, and Freemasonry: ritual for white protestants.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-11-2003, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jackalope
Jesus H. Christ on a frigging roller skate! Shut up about Hitler already. It's offtopic. Go make another thread if you want to do the Hitler thing Yet Again.

My apologies. However, exposing Old Man's selective quoting of an article which refuted his position was worthy of immediate attention IMHO.

On-topic: the obvious candidate is Christianity, but it's difficult to enumerate exactly how many religions it drew from. I've seen arguments that Buddhism and Hinduism were involved, as well as the usual suspects (Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Greek myth...).

Hinduism is apparently where Christianity got the idea of church bells from. Possibly the Trinity also.

Old Man · 03-11-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Old Man, did you actually bother to READ the article that you quoted from?

Here's what it says next:

Some more snippets:

And it goes on, and on...

"Hitler's Table Talk" has about as much credibility as the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"!

Hitler WAS a Christian!

Trouble is, you have not one iota of direct evidence that the table talk is untruthful. Just circumstantial evidence which would be thrown out by any court of law as untrustworthy evidence.

Here is some more of his table talk

http://www.kwdavids.net/table.html

The conclusion is admirably stated here:

http://www.kwdavids.net/hitler.html#Conclusions

Quote:

Conclusions
It is an established historical fact that Hitler was baptized a Roman Catholic and confirmed at age 15, and that Hitler never formally and publicly left the Catholic Church.

Hitler considered himself religious, but had only contempt for organized religion and the teachings of the church about Jesus. Hitler had his own private view of Jesus, that of an economic revolutionary and Jew hater. So in some twisted sense Hitler thought he was acting in the tradition of Jesus. If the question is, "can someone read the New Testament and then go off and do horribly bad things?" then the answer is yes. If the question is "was Hitler in the tradition of mainstream Christianity" then the answer is no.

The problem of saying "Hitler was a Christian" when by "Christian" is meant something totally different from normal usage and historical context, is that the sentence ceases to mean anything. One might as well have said "Hitler was a Zorb" because the last word is meaningless. The only "value" in saying "Hitler was a Christian" with an iconoclastic meaning for "Christian" is as a tool of anti-Christian propaganda towards the end of misleading people.

It is clear that Hitler's primary dispute was with Roman Catholicism, and he may have deluded himself that he was following in Christ's footsteps. But Christ prophecied that many people would delude themselves that way, so it proves nothing, and says nothing about whether Hilter "believed". And without belief, he could not have been a Christian, whatever else he said.

Old Man · 03-11-2003, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
As "original sin" is a specifically Christian concept, I don't find this surprising.

Not so. It is clear that it was inherent in Judaism hundreds of years before Christ.

winstonjen · 03-11-2003, 05:07 PM

Sorry for this slightly off-topic post.

Old Man, since when does one have to support organised religion to be a Christian?

On-topic - I think that it's inevitable for religions to draw from one another. They get influenced by the people and cultures in their proximity.

bocajeff · 03-12-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lamma
How would the Raeliens be classified? New Age meets Darwinism?

But since evolution isn't a religion maybe this falls under a unique hybrid.
Then again, from what little I've read, the Raeliens more or less claim that all religions came from ET's.

I would say Raelians are more of a combo of UFO Cult and Christianity. Most of the their influence is Xtianity, but instead of the things happening in the Bible because of God, it is because of the aliens.

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03-11-2003, 08:35 AM	#24
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	Jesus H. Christ on a frigging roller skate! Shut up about Hitler already. It's offtopic. Go make another thread if you want to do the Hitler thing Yet Again.

03-11-2003, 08:55 AM	#25
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	For syncretic religions (means the elements were borrowed with some sort of design in mind and there's a cultural context for it), I can think of: Vodou, Rada (Haiti) : Dahomey and catholicism Vodou, Petro: kongo, indian and catholicism Vodou, Nago: yoruba, dahomey and catholicism Regalia de Ocha (Cuba): yoruba and catholicism Palo (Cuba): kongo and catholicism Condomble (Brazil) yoruba, kongo and catholicism memory is going...I'm trying to remember exactly the details on Shango Baptists. I think that's West Indies. There's at least one variety of pentacostals in Louisiana who are known as "Sand Dancers." Appears to have Kongo and Dahomey elements. Oh, and Freemasonry: ritual for white protestants.

03-11-2003, 05:07 PM	#29
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	Sorry for this slightly off-topic post. Old Man, since when does one have to support organised religion to be a Christian? On-topic - I think that it's inevitable for religions to draw from one another. They get influenced by the people and cultures in their proximity.

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