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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: gore
Posts: 31
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What am I missing wrt prophecy?
Greetings,
I posted the following message on another messageboard ( www.apologetics.org) (in the thread http://www.apologetics.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=334). (I am Regorge on that board)
The person I was conversing with (KT) posted a followup message that basically if the above was my best answer that he wasn't interested in discussing the matter further. Is my analysis of biblical prophecy just totally ridiculous? Am I really just dumb and missing the obvious? Am I blinded by Satan  ?
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Regorge,
Your requirements need some qualification.
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The prophecy must deal in specific details, not vague generalities which are capable of being manipulated to fit various circumstances. To predict that someone will do something at sometime is not terribly impressive.
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It rather depends. Enabling the blind to see is rather impressive.
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Maybe... but there are a lot of comparisons between sight and a theological understanding made in the gospels. What if Jesus had never restored anyone's sight or hearing... would not people have insisted that he fulfilled such a prophecy by explaining himself in terms of the law and the prophets, and opening the eyes of their hearts?
As an example of what I mean by a specific prophecy -- just think of the level of detail it would take in your horoscope for you to think there was some supernatural backing behind it. "You will encounter an old acquaintance" probably wouldn't cut it. What does 'old' mean? Someone you've known for a while? Someone you last saw a while ago? Someone you first met a while ago? Someone who is older than you? This prediction would be fulfilled by you meeting just about anyone you've ever met before *and* the exact fulfilment of this prophecy was *not* predictable until after the fact of its "fulfilment".
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Exact fulfillment, not merely a high degree of probability, must characterize the prediction. A prophet who is 80% accurate is no prophet at all!
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I don't know who Wayne Jackson is, or rather you've quoted him precisely, but #3 is incoherent. How could a particular prophecy be 80% accurate? Jesus rose from the dead, but His right arm was a little stiff and He had a slight cold?
The requirement of 100% accuracy is a Judaeo/Christian requirement only. If a psychic could bat .800, she'd have to put up riot barricades around her business.
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Right... I'm discussing things for the judeo-christian belief.
As far as the 100% fulfilment issue goes, I think the reasoning something like this. If someone prophesies that a man named Jesus will be born, be crucified, and rise from the dead in a physical resurrection. If Jesus were to do that, but be resurrection in a spiritual resurrection (and lets say there is no question that the resurrection was spiritual and not physical), then it would be an example of a partial fulfilment. You could argue that since a supernatural event happened that still proves something (which I think was your point above), but you get what I'm saying -- if we're only right in the some of the details, though it might be impressive that we are right at all, there is no room for error in predictions made by a timeless being.
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Do any prophecies meet this standard?
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From what I've seen, no... but isn't the standard a reasonable one? We musn't be forced to choose an arbitrarily low standard until *something* we have evidence for meets it, because that begs the question as to the existence of fulfilled prophecy. Why should we not have a very high standard for predictions made by an omniscient being in order to identify the most important person in human history?
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There's an important corollary - what is the probability that one person would have met the Messianic prophecies that were taken to be Messianic before the church?
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Well, as I was discussing with EC (and hopefully he'll find the time to respond in the earlier thread), perhaps these prophecies were taken as messianic prior to the arrival of Jesus. That only shows 1) that the jews thought they were messianic (which is only of evidentiary value if you believe that their god exists) and 2) that Jesus fulfilled some of the proposed messianic prophecies according to at least one interpretation. How many verses had been identified as messianic before Jesus? Certainly some which he did not fulfill, since their are expectations regarding his actions when he makes his return. Also, the question is, how many of these messianic prophecies had more than one interpretation / could have been reinterpreted if Jesus had done things differently? I'm not discounting the fact that these prophecies were identified as messianic prior to his arrival, but the interpretation of these prophecies as allegedly fulfileld by Jesus wasn't set in stone either, so the evidentiary value has limits as well.
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Micah 5:2 - The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem
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It is not clear that the town, rather than the clan, is being prophesied here. Most modern translations interpret it as the clan, which makes the reports of Jesus having been born in that town rather suspect.
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Zechariah 9:9 - The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey
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So what? Now, if it has prophesied that he would enter riding a rhino, then I would be impressed. I mean, lots of people rode donkeys in those days *and* this prophecy was self fulfilling -- we have Jesus's own words asking his disciples to get the donkey for him to ride in on.
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Zechariah 11:12,13 - The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver
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The application of this verse to Jesus's betrayal is far from clear. Anyway, we have no real reason to believe that the gospel writers wouldn't have just lied about the amount of money Judas got to make the prophecy come out -- how did they get that information anyway?
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Isaiah 53:5-9 - The Messiah will be killed
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Well, I'll give you this one that it could be applied to Jesus's life. But the prophecy is far from specific in what it is prophesying until after the fact.
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Psalm 22 - Specifically, the Messiah will be crucified (with various details)
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Well, I think there are some suspect verses in there that don't apply to Jesus unless you interpret them pretty liberally.
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Isaiah 53:12 The Messiah will be crucified with criminals
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Well... crucifixion *was* a punishment for criminals, after all.
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Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 - Unusually, the Messiah, though crucified, will not have His legs broken
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How does 22:17 indicate that the legs would not be broken? You can only get that by reading a *lot* into the text. In the NKJV it reads
"17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me."
34:20 is a little more specific but it's not clear to me exactly what is being said in it (in the context of verse 19). Also, are you really certain that none of Jesus bones were broken? Don't forget that he had been flogged and beaten, and had nails driven in his wrists and feet... I'm not sure you could drive a nail through your foot without a good chance of piercing a bone.
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Isaiah 53:9 - The Messiah will be buried with the rich
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Well it also says they made his grave with the wicked, and don't the gospels say something to the effect of Joseph of A being virtuous?
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Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15 - The Messiah will be raised from the dead
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Psalm 16 only predicts that if you read a ton into what is written.
Psalm 49 says 'redeem my soul', not 'body'... evidence for a spiritual resurrection? :P (yes I realize that Psalm 16 implies a physical resurrection if you interpret it to imply a resurrection at all)
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Isaiah 35:5-6 - The Messiah will enable the blind to see, the deaf to hear
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Did verse 7 come true?
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Isaiah 53:3 - The Messiah will be rejected
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He wasn't rejected by all. It's a stretch to say this matches.
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Isaiah 53:7 - The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers
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This is just false. He opened his mouth plenty of times. He said things at his trial, on the way to the cross, after crucified, and before his death.
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These, I think, are sufficiently specific to satisfy the requirements you present, once the requirements have been amended appropriately.
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I don't find them such. But, lets try and see what happens. Take some collection of messianic prophecies regarding Jesus and, attempting to ignore how history played out, see how much of what happened you can reconstruct using just these prophecies, reading a minimum amount into them which is not at least reasonably implied. For example, Psalm 16 taken alone doesn't, indicate a resurrection. Psalm 49 may indicate a resurrection, but doesn't indicate a physical resurreciton. If you take them together, then maybe you can claim a physical resurrection is indicated.
After you have done this, I'd be curious to see how much of Jesus's life could be accurately and precisely predicted. Next, take a few verses which had been identified as messianic and which Jesus is not said to have fulfilled, and try to work those verses into the story you've constructed. Does what you have now still bear resemblance to Jesus's life? I have my doubts that it would...
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04-17-2003, 11:52 PM
