Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NOGO · 07-09-2002, 03:19 PM

It is often said that Jesus' baptism was an embarrassment.

I believe that the intent of baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was two fold. First it is a way of giving Jesus, John's seal of approval. John was a stepping stone for Jesus. Second, Jesus' baptism reads like David's anointing as the "Christ" ie the anointed one of God.

Mark 1:9-12
In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness.

1 Samuel 16:13-14
Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah. Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

Here are the elements which I believe coincide.

Samuel pours oil on David.
John pours water on Jesus.

The spirit of God descends on David.
The spirit of God descends on Jesus.

David is henceforth guided by the spirit of God.
Jesus is guided by the spirit into the desert.

David starts a new role as King/leader of his people.
Jesus begins his public life.

In my opinion the original author of Jesus' baptism intended to show John as a priestly figure, admired by many, effectively anointing Jesus King of Israel.

No embarrassment there.
Perhaps the embarrassment came later when Jesus was made God.

Matthew 16:15-17
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Mark 8:29-30
And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ." And He warned them to tell no one about Him.

Note that in Matthew 16 Jesus confirms that he is the "anointed one of God" while in Mark he simply says not to tell anyone.

Clearly by this time Jesus had been anointed already, so if it was not by John then who did it?

Note that it is not surprizing that Jesus did not want this to be public knowledge. A claim to be king of Israel would not be seen very kindly by Jewish and Roman authorities.

I am posting this simply to get some feeback on the subject.

Thank you.
NOGO

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Jayman · 07-09-2002, 04:35 PM

People could comment on this in a number of ways. Do you have any questions, in particular, you want to ask about Jesus' baptism?

sidewinder · 07-10-2002, 07:57 AM

I disagree with your interpretation of Jesus' baptism. John was baptizing as a sign of repentance for sins. Jesus submitted to this baptism for the repentance of sins. The interpretations you give were later interpretations by the writers of the NT gospels. I can't look up the verses now but if John knew who Jesus was and what his role was to be, why does he send his disciples to ask Jesus if he is the "one to come"? It seems pretty certain that Jesus' baptism was an embarrassment to his late 1st century followers (because of the nature of the baptism), so the writers of the NT gospels interpreted it differently. They had to explain how the Messiah, Son of God, God Incarnate could submit to such a baptism.

NOGO · 07-10-2002, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Jayman
People could comment on this in a number of ways. Do you have any questions, in particular, you want to ask about Jesus' baptism?

It's actually very simple. When I read 1 Samuel and the way he anointed David it immediately made me think of Jesus' baptism.

If I can have that kind of a reaction 2000 years later then I am willing to believe that most Jews familiar with the Bible would have seen the link as well and would have interpreted the story of Jesus' baptism as I have.

I am therefore suggesting that the story of Jesus' baptism is meant to represent his anointing as King of Israel.

I don't have any questions. Just tell me what you think. Tell me it's nonsense if you want but please tell me why as well.

NOGO · 07-10-2002, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Sidewinder
I disagree with your interpretation of Jesus' baptism. John was baptizing as a sign of repentance for sins. Jesus submitted to this baptism for the repentance of sins. The interpretations you give were later interpretations by the writers of the NT gospels. I can't look up the verses now but if John knew who Jesus was and what his role was to be, why does he send his disciples to ask Jesus if he is the "one to come"?

Thank you for your feedback.
It is not necessary for John to knowingly anoint Jesus. It is possible that someone, perhaps Mark, wrote the story of Jesus' baptism with David's anointing in mind.

All that I am saying is that no matter what actually took place and why, the original writer of the story wanted people at the time to see Jesus' baptism as an anointing similar to David's.

07-09-2002, 03:19 PM	#1
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	Jesus' baptism It is often said that Jesus' baptism was an embarrassment. I believe that the intent of baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was two fold. First it is a way of giving Jesus, John's seal of approval. John was a stepping stone for Jesus. Second, Jesus' baptism reads like David's anointing as the "Christ" ie the anointed one of God. Mark 1:9-12 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. 1 Samuel 16:13-14 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah. Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him. Here are the elements which I believe coincide. Samuel pours oil on David. John pours water on Jesus. The spirit of God descends on David. The spirit of God descends on Jesus. David is henceforth guided by the spirit of God. Jesus is guided by the spirit into the desert. David starts a new role as King/leader of his people. Jesus begins his public life. In my opinion the original author of Jesus' baptism intended to show John as a priestly figure, admired by many, effectively anointing Jesus King of Israel. No embarrassment there. Perhaps the embarrassment came later when Jesus was made God. Matthew 16:15-17 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Mark 8:29-30 And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ." And He warned them to tell no one about Him. Note that in Matthew 16 Jesus confirms that he is the "anointed one of God" while in Mark he simply says not to tell anyone. Clearly by this time Jesus had been anointed already, so if it was not by John then who did it? Note that it is not surprizing that Jesus did not want this to be public knowledge. A claim to be king of Israel would not be seen very kindly by Jewish and Roman authorities. I am posting this simply to get some feeback on the subject. Thank you. NOGO [ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ] [ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

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07-09-2002, 04:35 PM	#2
Jayman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 68	People could comment on this in a number of ways. Do you have any questions, in particular, you want to ask about Jesus' baptism?

07-10-2002, 07:57 AM	#3
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	I disagree with your interpretation of Jesus' baptism. John was baptizing as a sign of repentance for sins. Jesus submitted to this baptism for the repentance of sins. The interpretations you give were later interpretations by the writers of the NT gospels. I can't look up the verses now but if John knew who Jesus was and what his role was to be, why does he send his disciples to ask Jesus if he is the "one to come"? It seems pretty certain that Jesus' baptism was an embarrassment to his late 1st century followers (because of the nature of the baptism), so the writers of the NT gospels interpreted it differently. They had to explain how the Messiah, Son of God, God Incarnate could submit to such a baptism.

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