Gurdur

@ De Kooning:
I'm a tad surprised at your answer; you wrote: Despite the fact that dowry-related murders are illegal, rough statistics exist for those - guesstimates, to be sure, but better than nothing, so why none for your allegation of suttee?
Since I don't know you, the issue of your own reliability or judgement is not relevant; and I'm a mite disappointed that you should choose to answer in this way. Note that I am not being unnecessarily skeptical; but I am being practical.

I look forward to your answer.

[ August 12, 2001: Message edited by: Gurdur ]

Gurdur

de Kooning: I made a mistake here, and thought you had deleted your post to which I had responded just above.
My apologies for my original posting here, which I have just deleted.
Nevertheless, I would like you to provide more information to back up your allegation.
I have made a web search myself, and the information that I have found supports my comment that cases of suttee a.k.a. Sati are few and far between since 1890.

deKooning

Hi Gurdur. You are not likely to be satisfied with my information, as I have already given it to you. I looked on the web. There is not much, mostly conflicting. The reason why it is conflicting is because of the obvious difficulty in compiling such data, hence my sarcastic response the first time. I have no trouble accepting the testimony of two people I know and respect who both live in India and spend much time in rural areas.

And you have every epistemic right to not believe the truth of it all.

[ August 12, 2001: Message edited by: deKooning ]

Gurdur

de Kooning, I'm not too satisfied. Your sarcastic remark came a little too close to winning a rhetorical 'point' using
what would be genuine tragedies.

Gurdur

The point is not whether I believe it; I try my best to investigate these things.
For all I know, your received information is correct - though you have not troubled yourself to detail it in any way.
The point here for me is that you use it to score a very cheap point, at the expense of unfortunate people.

hinduwoman

Hi Gurdur, sati is a public act and word of it spreads rapidly. unless everyone knows about it it cannot be sati. there is therefore, no dearth of data. the only conflict would be whether they were forced or not.

My relatives say that possibly in 1950/60 one sati took place but no evidence is documented. In 1986, one girl Roop KAnwar committed sati. She had been married for only one year and was only 18 both of which probably contributed to her decision. the villagers were too much in awe to physically prevent her but they did argue that the police would arrest them and many would lose their govt. jobs. The 'coercecion' here would be glamorization of sati which would make her a goddess.

In 1996 a woman called Charan shah. standing in front fo her husband's pyre threw herself in. They had been married for thirty years. There were no one nearby to stop her. From my materialistic viewpoint it is ridiculuous to say that her sons had forcefully immolated her since she was a wage-earner and the poor family needed the money; also in their community widow remarriage is traditional and widows are not regarded as bad luck.

there had been only these two recorded cases of sati since 1980's.

Of course, if someone says that everyday widows are being dragged forcibly to the pyres, he is free to say so even if he cannot provide any proof.

hinduwoman

Viewpoints, here liberating truths is not the issue. The point is how did religions impact on woman's status.
The Vedic literature doesnot discriminate because they are concerned with rituals and pure philosophy.
But once the dharmashastras codified the laws, they were accepted as a source of authority.
Granted that Hindus have an 'out' since scriptures say that the law must change from age to age to suit the needs of the age, but even now women are regarded as inferior in orthodox households.

jess

Dekooning: Yes, and Rome published articles specifically denying this claim in order to protect the Christians from persectuion.

As opposed to today, I guess. Any religion that refers to its followers as 'sheep' sounds like a good religion for slaves, IMO. One reason the american south promoted Christianity in its slaves was for the lax attitude towards them.

Viewpoints: Yes, and we seem to abuse 'nature' as well... (Of course, being a part of is ourselves)

Re: Sati: I can understand how a grieving woman/man would voluntarily kill her/him self at her/his spouse's funeral. Don't spouses sometimes kill themselves in the west right after funerals?


[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: jess ]

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: jess ]

lpetrich

As to being female-friendly, early Christianity had no monopoly. Greco-Roman paganism was anything but a unified front, consisting of a mishmash of assorted sects and cults with some attempts to reconcile them -- much like Hinduism, I may add. And some of these sects/cults were known for having fervent female followings, such as the cult of Dionysus, god of wine and passion.

But I think that the real test of a religion's female-friendliness is whether women can be that religion's officials and leaders (priests, clergypeople, rabbis, imams, ...). I don't know if there are any female Hindu priests, but among religions more familiar to me, there is a wide variation, with the less "fundie" sorts of sects tending to have more clergywomen. Alternative religions like New Age and neopaganism have had lots of female leaders, and the secular/freethought community has generally had a good record in this sort of female-friendliness.

Viewpoints

Hinduwoman,

I agree with the base premise that women are persecuted in most religions. However, I was questioning the source from which authority is seemingly derived by men to justify their gender-biased actions. Manu is cited ever so often, but this historic wrong has now been installed as a truth due to frequency of usage. IMO religion is little more than a degradation of spirituality. Organized religion, atleast speaking for Hinduism, has little in common with its lofty spiritual premises.