leonarde

From one of the links given in the original post
in which various witnesses describe what they saw:
These are witnesses at a distance of 25 and 11 miles away from the apparition site, who were NOT
already looking at the sun but who nonetheless
saw this remarkable optical phenomenon....
The above is from:
<a href="http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/October.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/October.htm</a>

Cheers!

Viti

Why do only Catholics have visions of the virgin Mary? Wouldn't it be more of a miracle if a Protestant minister converted after being visited?

leonarde

Gosh, Lady Shea, that's one of the most durn interesting lines of inquiry I've heard in a long
time.
Short answer: I don't know.
Long answer: these Marian apparitions DO seem to
have some common elements:
1)predominantly Catholic country.
2)relatively remote location.
3)visionary/ies are simple unassuming sorts of
very little sophistication.
4)local authorities are very skeptical.
5)some sign is produced to authenticate the word
of the visionary/visionaries.
6)the message of the Mary figure always revolves
around repentance and conversion.

At least that is the pattern of the apparitions
with which I am the most familiar: Lourdes, Fatima
and Medjugorje.
As for Protestant countries: most Protestant groups are more exclusively Christ-centered so
a Marian appearance would be unassimilatable to
the local population. Same way with totally non-Christian countries.
It is something to think about!

Sojourner553

Actually, I just assumed it was a naturally occurring picture. Anybody ever look at the clouds and imagine pictures in it? I've seen some amazing combinations in the clouds. This also reminds me of the picture taken in the remains of the WTC where if you squint just right you can kindda make out a demonic looking face.

So a little random element and lots of belief or hysteria makes for a miracle.

Anyone aware of Michael Persinger's work on how natural geomagnetic forces can interact with our electrical systems creating feelings of reverence?
This might also be a factor.

Sacred/Taboo Sites

There are tremendous geomagnetic forces operating from within the earth.--
It is known that powerful seismic pressure inside the earth's crust can push
against rock crystals, resulting in powerful electric fields across large
areas. These fields can measure several thousand volts per meter, and are
responsible for earthquake activity and such side effects as earthquake
lightening.

These geophysical forces are believed to be responsible for certain strange,
freakish phenomenon-- including the following examples: In 1920, a brook in
Lincolnshire, England "jumped" 20 feet, killing 50 people. In 1968, a 50 foot
deep hole suddenly appeared in someone's backyard in San Diego, California.
In 1973, several tons of rock pushed up from the ground in Elk Hill, Oklahoma.
(Winifred Gallagher "Sacred Places", PSYCHOLOGY TODAY, Jan/Feb 1993, p 70.)

Some scientists believe that these geophysical forces can interact with our
bodies' natural electrical systems, creating a feeling of reverence and
contact with the divine. This COULD explain the feeling of reverence attached
to certain revered holy sites in the world-- such as Ayer's Rock in Australia
(world's largest rock, held sacred by the aborigines). Recently, New Agers
and spiritual seekers have flocked to the mountains of the Chilean Andes
(held sacred to the Incas Indians) where on some nights, flashing lights and
weird glows can be clearly discerned, accompanied by popping, sizzling sounds.
(Ibid, p68)

Michael Persinger, professor of psychology and neuroscience at Laurentian
University in Sudbury Ontario, has conducted extensive research in this area.
Using some 150 research subjects, Persinger has studied a large variety of
geomagnetic-related phenomenon. According to Persinger, strange lights and
power failures can often be explained by electrical discharges:

"When an electrical discharge is concentrated in a spot that allows
the maximum field and ionization potential--often at the tops of hills and
buildings, near power lines, or swampy overgrown areas where decomposition
releases combustible gases--strange lights and power failures can occur.
These magnetic-field zones can also cause odd psychological reactions.
There are accounts of people who have stepped into such an area,
felt fearful, stepped back out, and felt all right again." (Ibid p 70)

Sometimes the physical forces do not originate from within the earth,
but can arise from external forces from the sun interacting with the
earth. Again according to Persinger:

"Between August 2 and 7 in 1962... massive sunspot activity shocked
the Earth hard enough to [affect] its orbit...On August 10, multicolored
fireballs, probably consisting of plasma, were reported over the United
States. On August 19, a major UFO flap began, with many people reporting
luminous objects, football-shaped spacecraft, and the like."(Ibid, p68)

Per Persinger, the areas in which such bizarre activity occurs, often
acquire reputations as sacred or taboo spots. During 1968-9, hundreds of
thousands of people reported seeing a vision of the Virgin Mary and other
heavenly sights over a Coptic church in Zeitoun, Egypt (located not far from
Cairo). Various luminous displays in the air, varying in intensity and
longevity were confirmed by photographs, (although the image was always
vague enough to be left open to interpretation--some would say imagination--
of the viewer). Interestingly, when Persinger examined seismological records
of the area, he found that these luminous displays occurred roughly one year
before an unprecedented increase in seismic activity in the area (by a
factor of 10 in the Zeitoun case). (p 64)

Except taken from
Section VII, Chapter 2 - Astrology, Channeling, EXP, Ghosts

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

_______________________________________

Sojourner

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

lpetrich

Which is very illogical. Why not appear directly to the top authorities? That's the way that Bush and Blair had handled the recent confrontation of India and Pakistan over Kashmir.

And why isn't there any more interesting message than repentance and conversion?

Why not warnings of coming disasters and instructions on how to avert them or survive them? I mean by that specific disasters and specific instructions.

On 8 AM local time, November 1, 1755, Lisbon suffered a big earthquake -- an earthquake which had collapsed many churches upon all the worshippers inside for All Souls' Day. So why didn't the Virgin Mary appear to the citizens of that town a few days before and warn them of that earthquake? Or even smooth that earthquake out into lots of tiny quakes?

She was not doing her job.

Very ingenious. One wonders why she didn't appear to Martin Luther, John Calvin, King Henry VIII, and other early Protestants and tell them to cut out their schisms. Or appear to later ones asking them to not forget about her.

As to non-Christians, she could always introduce herself. What's so impossibly hard about that???

Vorkosigan

1)predominantly Catholic country.
2)relatively remote location.
3)visionary/ies are simple unassuming sorts of
very little sophistication.
4)local authorities are very skeptical.
5)some sign is produced to authenticate the word
of the visionary/visionaries.
6)the message of the Mary figure always revolves
around repentance and conversion.

You left out: by young females.

Frequently in the early stages the visions are not of any particular "thing." For example, at Lourdes, Bernadette's visitor initially called itself "Aquero" -- "that one" in the local dialect. ONly after a period of intensive questioning by Catholic priests did the vision suddenly reveal itslef to be the Immaculate Conception.....

Michael

leonarde

Posted by turtonm: There does seem to be a female
predominance among such visionaries but
1)Juan Diego of Guadalupe was a full grown man.
2)the Fatima group had one male child.
3)the Medjugorje group also had at least one male
in it.

It's true; however
1)the questioning was to try to uncover the fabrication(s) involved (the police do the same thing to try to uncover invented incidents: ask
for repetitions and look for contradictions in a
given story).
2)Bernadette's blurting out of "the Immaculate
Conception", again in the local patois, convinced
the local parish priest that she was being honest:
her level of knowledge of Catholicism was so meagre (the priest himself knew) that she was totally unaware at that point what the "Immaculate
Conception" was.
3)Bernadette had several visions spread out over
many weeks of 1858 so she had time to consult with
the Lady of her visions.
4)the "Immaculate Conception" was only defined by
the Church in 1854 so most rural Catholics, indeed
most Catholics in general wouldn't have been familiar with it.

Cheers!

Answerer

Well Joe, nice to find out that I'm not alone in this forum, however, I'm sorry that I have to get back to the main picture and feel free to join in as well.
Well Leonarde, I know its a bit of unfair for all of us to 'bully' you at the same time but I'm afraid that I have to say something as well. Even if the miracles you describe are true, there are several other religions out there in the world that have the same thing too. So, if there are other miracles besides those from Christinity, the dogma proclaimed by the bible isn't absolute 'truth' of the world as there are other gods or forces out there.
Furthermore, I think that others have tried to explain the logical, scientific and political reasons to you already. So, why don't you just accept all our reasonings?



[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]</p>