HelenM

I think you have it backwards. I would claim I understand the motivations for rape and the effects of it quite well but I have no clue about rape fantasies.

I suspect that people who would lightly say they have rape fantasies, or claim that all men do, are the ones who have not really understood the horror of rape.

If I have written otherwise maybe I mis-wrote.

love
Helen

The AntiChris

At last!

We're agreed.

Chris

HelenM

I thought we did agree. It was just you who didn't think so!

But maybe it was lack of clarity on my part that caused us to seem not to agree.

Phew...

love
Helen

Baloo

If I may chime in...

I am happily married. My wife is constantly claiming that she does not deserve anyone as "kind-natured" as me, and often wonders aloud how I can manage to be so caring and kind in the way I treat everyone in my life, as well as strangers who I've never even met. Though disappointed that I am an atheist, my mother describes me to others as the most Christ-like person she knows (the highest compliment of character she can pay). Throughout my college years, friends diagnosed me as having "nice-guy" syndrome, a serious condition which prevented me from even mildly pressuring girls into having sex (I actually graduated from college a 22 y.o. virgin - my wife ultimately initiated nearly every "first" I had, and to this day I am her "work in progress" to being more assertive sexually). The idea of *actual* nonconsensual sex repulses me. A girl I dated my senior year had been date-raped her freshman year - as she relayed the story to me, she had to pause twice and wait for my tears of mixed empathy and anger, to stop. Current stories of pedophile priests, of women raped, of children abused, of anybody made to suffer so thoroughly and so needlessly, all bring about a similar, strong mixture of feelings of sadness, anger, and disgust.

Having said all of that...

Since a very yound age, I've entertained fantasies in a manner where I "check my morals at the door", and basically let my mind wander wherever the hell it wants, with no fear of reprisal whatsoever. This has caused it to "test the waters" of fantasies including (but not limited to - and in no particular order):

(Ok, I'm not as brave as DG. I deleted my list. In my defense, the whole idea behind these fantasies is that they are private - this idea is what makes fantasizing as enjoyable as it is for me - plus, I'd rather not have them brought up out of context in the future).

Basically, if I could dream it up, I would. If you can dream it up, I probably did. Granted, as I aged, the abnormal fantasies grew fewer and further between - in fact, since adolescence, they've declined to a mere drop in the bucket. However, I did seek therapy during my late high school years (when these fanatsies ran most rampant). After all, I wasn't naive - I realized such fantasies COULD be indicative of a sick and dangerous mind. Also, I'd often try to repress the fantasies, but such attempts always failed. Since I was a devout Christian at the time, my inability to "block Satan out" led to intense feelings of worthlessness and suicidal contemplations.

Anyway, after a surprisingly short series of talks, my therapist convinced me that my fantasies were harmless expressions of hormonal overloads, that many, many people are prone to such fantasies, and that I had nothing to worry about and no medical reason to repress them.

Now I'm curious... do my revelations in the second half of my post make me a less moral person?

p.s. (after reading Helen's and AC's posts...)My "fantasy victims" were never fantasized to experience the real emotional trauma of actual rape crimes. As I've said, I dated a girl who'd been a rape victim, and sat by her as she suffered post-traumatic stress symptoms ranging from shivers to full-blown seizures from a horrible event endured 3 years earlier. My fantasies, and I suspect those of most others who engage in such fantasies, occur in a world utterly unlike real-life in this sense.

David Gould

Hi Helen,

Thanks for that. You were actually one of the main reasons why I was thinking about not posting it - I was even considering whether to register another name. But then I decided that I was confident enough in you not to be so worried about it.

David Gould

Without going into detail, my fantasies do not include the full, real detail of the victim's suffering but their suffering plays a large part.

The power thing is very in evidence in my fantasies.

David Gould

It is certainly not a light thing to admit to for me. I beleive I have a fair understanding of the horror of rape. (and perhaps my fantasies have made me even more sensitive to it?)

For Baloo,

I do not see how someone is less moral for having such fantasies but of course I am biased as I have them.

I admit that I often feel shame about them as something that a 'normal' person would not have but I have not been able to work out why the fantasies themselves would be immoral.

The AntiChris

Sounds like the perfect description of how we all fantasize (except maybe Helen ). Although if we're talking about sexual fantasies (in their broadest sense) I'd reword it to say "check my inhibitions at the door". This is important, because it fits with your comment:

I think the difference between morals and inhibitions in fantasies is crucial. I think I can honestly say that I haven't had a sexual fantasy that I wouldn't be prepared the act out in real life. Of course in the wrong circumstances it might lead to severe embarrassment and humiliation , but I wouldn't have a problem "morally" (no one would be harmed).

I have to admit I struggle with the notion that an activity, which would repulse someone in reality, can actually give pleasure if imagined.

I'm guessing, but I suspect the true rape fantasy (where humiliation of the victim is involved) is more analogous to the revenge murder fantasy where the pleasure is derived more from dealing out retribution than from the act of murder itself. In the case of rape, I'd guess the pleasure comes from satisfying a need to control and possibly punish women (rather than gratuitous cruelty), which presumably reflects a problem the fantasist has relating to women in the real world.

To anyone who has admitted to having had rape fantasies, I apologise if I appear judgemental - this is not my intention. Just trying to understand.

Chris

HelenM

I can say this: it seems much more moral to 'test things out' in a fantasy than to go and try them in real life

It could be that because I believe that fantasies could well lead to changed behavior - and even more likely affect my attitudes - I don't let myself go there even mentally, as far as possible.

Obviously someone who regards something as harmless and not immoral is not going to try to stop themselves doing it, whereas someone who has serious concerns about the benefit of the something, will try not to.

But then - and this is probably partly what one person was describing as a Christian teenager (which I wasn't, btw - I wasn't, until I was 20) - there is that dynamic that more we try not to do something, the more we want to do it.

So, sometimes the people who least want to do something are the ones who end up feeling compelled to do it the most - and they are probably the ones who won't admit to it...

David Gould, I don't think of you as someone who takes things lightly. From what I've read of your posts you have a strong, thought-out value system which would prioritize respect towards others. The last thing I want to do on this thread is appear to be 'judging' other people. I've found that's neither constructive or helpful...

love
Helen

cleopas

Please forgive my edits here.. but my answer requires some setup:

No, not immoral, just impossible.

Nice story though.

Peace in your journeys.

cleopas

a former and recovering shoe salesman