7thangel

In Romans 3:10-19, it refers to those under the law, which actually mean all because we all pass the stage of being under the law. Being under the law mean under the process of knowing God, and therefore ignorant of God. Yup we all pass, in fact, born, ignorant of God.

I guess you understand when a friend start to be childish. It would take a lot, and lot, of patience.

Wayne Delia

If it's the first case, my list of logical fallacies apply.

Otherwise, if it's the second case, the antecedent "they" in Psalms 53:1 is ambiguous - to whom does it refer? The antecedent would seem to refer to God, or any gods - "Corrupt are they (the gods) and have done abominable iniquity..." I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment for some specific gods I've heard about, but it seems like the author has an internal inconsistency which is unresolved: first, he states that fools profess that there is no God, and then goes on to state that the fools claim that the God they don't believe exists happens to be corrupt and have performed all sorts of abominations. So, in the strawman argument, the author can't make up his mind whether the atheist thinks there is no God or not.

On that basis, I assume it's the first case.

WMD

mike_decock

If you look at the context of Romans 3, Paul is talking about Jewish Law:

Romans 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

The scriptures you are referring to is specifically about the Jews, living under Jewish law. Paul is arguing that respecting Jewish law (circumcision, etc) is not necessary for Gentiles.

He even even publicly argued with Peter about this:

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Kind of ironic that Paul should be correcting Peter on doctrine since Peter was the one who supposedly spent 3 years under the tutelage of Jesus.

I guess Paul was having a hard time selling Jesus to Gentiles who were reluctant to get circumcised and decided it was an easier sell if they could ignore all those inconvenient Jewish Laws.

-Mike...

7thangel

You are right, Mike. But I do actually imply, so does the Bible, that when a person is under the law, he is "ignorant" of God; see Galatians 3: 23-25.

Having the law does not necessarily mean having the literal book that contains all the law of Moses. In fact, Paul explained in Romans 2:14-15 that Gentiles by nature have the law. Besides, all the law is fulfilled in loving thy neighbor as thyself.

BTW, I guess Peter was moved by the fear of the Jews, not really because of ignorance.

mike_decock

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster

I don't see how you can imply that a person under the law is "ignorant". I see no such implication. Paul is simply saying that the law is, in essence, no longer needed.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

It's just another attempt to dismiss the need for Jewish Law (circumcision, etc.). Probably because the Gentiles weren't too keen on having to adopt that custom (ouch! ).

Fear of the Jews? He was a Jew and believed that one needed to convert to Judaism before becoming a follower of Jesus. He believed the law was still necessary because that was what Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:17-18
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

-Mike...

Hawkingfan

Could you expand on that? It sounds to me like it is yet another circular argument. ("Atheists are foolish because they lack the knowledge of God. Atheists lack the knowledge of God because they are foolish.")
So God is personally responsible for my unbelief? Why would he send me to hell for something I had no control over?

7thangel

Because of lack of knowledge.

I do not believe man has free will, and of Hell either.

7thangel

The faith mentioned is not the the action to believe which we can also attribute to ignorant believers. Faith is the knowledge we gain from hearing the word of God. Faith is absent while we are under the law. It is still to come through learning.

You seem to misunderstand the process of sanctification where it is necessary that we pass being under the law. When faith comes, as Paul stated, we are no more under the law.

[quote]Fear of the Jews? He was a Jew and believed that one needed to convert to Judaism before becoming a follower of Jesus. He believed the law was still necessary because that was what Jesus taught:

Galatians 2: 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

It means the spiritual one. Paul said, the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Romans 7: 6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

So we still follow the law, not literally though but spiritually. Paul said:

8. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

That I guess is the faith that we recieve through hearing the law; to know love. To know love is to know God; because God is love.

Wayne Delia

That's another of my favorite Christian paradoxes for which I ought to make another Mini-FAQ:

"God is love." (1 John 4:8)
"Love is not jealous (envious)." (1 Corinthians 13:4)
"I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." (Exodus 20:5)

Such a God cannot logically exist.

WMD

mike_decock

Faith

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence..

Faith through "learning" is the most absurd, contradictory apologetic I've ever heard. I've heard the "word of God" my entire life (my parents are Pentecostal missionaries). Faith is simply believing all the absurd claims without questioning it.



How is circumcision a "spiritual" law?

If you want to follow the teachings of Paul instead of the teachings of Jesus, be my guest. Perhaps we should rename your religion to Paulianity.

Just FYI, your last sentence is about as meaningful as saying "To know love is to know Santa; because Santa is love."

-Mike...