Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-11-2002, 09:55 AM

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/11/nyregion/11NATI.html" target="_blank">Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights Attacks Schools' Ban on Nativity Scenes</a>

It seems that New York Schools allow balanced holiday presentations of a Christmas tree, a Menorah, and a star and crescent. (If one symbols is used, the others must also be used.) A Queens family has sued, claiming that this discriminates against Roman Catholics.

Quote:

. . .William Donohue, president of the Catholic League, said the menorah and star and crescent were religious symbols, while the Christmas tree was not.

"I'm offended that we're some sort of second-class religion that would be satisfied with a tree," he said. The school system should allow a Nativity scene or ban all holiday symbols, he added.

And the lawsuit is being financed by ex-Domino Pizza magnate Tom Monahan's Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., "which takes on conservative Catholic causes". Officials of the Archdiocese of New York were not involved.

butswana · 12-11-2002, 10:09 AM

Some asshole around here has a nativity in the bed of his truck, and has vowed to park in front of some local government building every day until December 25.
If he wants to keep pumping change into a parking meter all day long that's fine with me.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: butswana ]

Jamie_L · 12-11-2002, 10:12 AM

If people start fights over attempts at balanced holiday decor, then the school should just ban all holiday decor. That'll show 'em.

Jamie

Arrowman · 12-11-2002, 06:47 PM

Jamie_L: Exactly!

They do have a point, though. The Christmas tree is not a Christian symbol at all, and it's pretty dumb, imho, to think that the tree somehow stacks up as "equal representation" alongside the other symbols.

On the other hand, asking for a nativity scene instead of the tree isn't quite on the money either. It should be a cross (the principal Christian symbol) to match the others. The nativity scene would be too, er, "overwhelming" alongside the others.

Of course, those whole thing is a loony half-assed attempt at "equal treatment" anyway.

1. It includes two religions which do not attach any special meaning to Christmas as Christ's birth. Seems to me that Christmas is a Christian holiday overlaid on a pagan tradition, and has nothing to do with Judaism or Islam.

2. What about all the other religions? There is an inherent bias, it seems, towards the Abrahamic religions as all deserving "equal treatment" (no matter how poorly implemented) but everyone else is out in the cold.

3. Which of these things is not like the other? All of them, actually. We have a non-Christian tree, a Jewish "device" and the Muslim symbol. None of these fall into the same category. It should be one of
a. Cross, star of David, star and crescent, or
b. Chalice (?), menorah, ? some Muslim device, or
c. Just a tree.

And surely therein lies the answer. Just put up a bloody tree and be done with it. That's one thing everyone can relate to, without prejudice.

Arrowman · 12-11-2002, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by butswana:
...If he wants to keep pumping change into a parking meter all day long that's fine with me.

Oh? Find a parking inspector who'll have the nerve to book him

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-12-2002, 06:57 AM

Quote:

"I'm offended that we're some sort of second-class religion that would be satisfied with a tree,"

Hey now, just because a religion is satisfied with a tree doesn't make it "second-class"! I'm offended! Can I sue?

PandaJoe · 12-12-2002, 08:19 AM

So it never occurred to them that they didn't have to put up ANY religious symbols? Just a tree, some plastic reindeer, and be done with it.

Splat · 12-12-2002, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrowman:
1. It includes two religions which do not attach any special meaning to Christmas as Christ's birth. Seems to me that Christmas is a Christian holiday overlaid on a pagan tradition, and has nothing to do with Judaism or Islam.

Technical nit pick: As I understand it, Islam recognizes JC, though as a prophet, not a savior (hence Yassar Arafat's traditional xmas trip to Bethlehem).

I think I may have suggested elsewere that we infidels adopt a five-pointed star (right side up) as the Official Symbol of Freethought in America. One benefit would be plenty of representation at xmas, with no effort on our part.

Toto · 12-12-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Splat:


Technical nit pick: As I understand it, Islam recognizes JC, though as a prophet, not a savior (hence Yassar Arafat's traditional xmas trip to Bethlehem).

...

True. Islam believes that Jesus was a prophet, and accepts that he was born of a virgin (although they don't think he is part of a triune god.) But AFAIK they do not celebrate his alleged birthday as a holy day.

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-12-2002, 01:25 PM

Quote:

I think I may have suggested elsewere that we infidels adopt a five-pointed star (right side up) as the Official Symbol of Freethought in America.

Too late. The Wiccans have already claimed it.

12-11-2002, 10:09 AM	#2
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	Some asshole around here has a nativity in the bed of his truck, and has vowed to park in front of some local government building every day until December 25. If he wants to keep pumping change into a parking meter all day long that's fine with me. [ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: butswana ]</p>

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12-11-2002, 10:12 AM	#3
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	If people start fights over attempts at balanced holiday decor, then the school should just ban all holiday decor. That'll show 'em. Jamie

12-11-2002, 06:47 PM	#4
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Jamie_L: Exactly! They do have a point, though. The Christmas tree is not a Christian symbol at all, and it's pretty dumb, imho, to think that the tree somehow stacks up as "equal representation" alongside the other symbols. On the other hand, asking for a nativity scene instead of the tree isn't quite on the money either. It should be a cross (the principal Christian symbol) to match the others. The nativity scene would be too, er, "overwhelming" alongside the others. Of course, those whole thing is a loony half-assed attempt at "equal treatment" anyway. 1. It includes two religions which do not attach any special meaning to Christmas as Christ's birth. Seems to me that Christmas is a Christian holiday overlaid on a pagan tradition, and has nothing to do with Judaism or Islam. 2. What about all the other religions? There is an inherent bias, it seems, towards the Abrahamic religions as all deserving "equal treatment" (no matter how poorly implemented) but everyone else is out in the cold. 3. Which of these things is not like the other? All of them, actually. We have a non-Christian tree, a Jewish "device" and the Muslim symbol. None of these fall into the same category. It should be one of a. Cross, star of David, star and crescent, or b. Chalice (?), menorah, ? some Muslim device, or c. Just a tree. And surely therein lies the answer. Just put up a bloody tree and be done with it. That's one thing everyone can relate to, without prejudice.

12-12-2002, 08:19 AM	#7
PandaJoe Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 188	So it never occurred to them that they didn't have to put up ANY religious symbols? Just a tree, some plastic reindeer, and be done with it.

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