Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andy_d · 07-23-2003, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leyline
I do not envy him his blindness.

Neither do I, but I envy him the equanimity it gives him. He's spared from the kind of mistake your friend made (albeit at a heavy price)

Carol: "he gets no pat on the back from me for shying away from the gift that this fine woman held out to him"

True. Are any of us really that much better though?

07-23-2003, 03:23 AM

Carol

I can appreciate to some extent where you are coming from, your acceptance, even insistence, that the physical here and now is more than enough. That you are not limited to the scientific view of the physical world, and spirituality abounds but not in an idealised sensed. You prefer to get real.

At least that is how I am trying to grasp how you relate to life and I am sure this is a gross over simplification. But that�s ok, because as you noted before it is sometimes difficult to get the full meaning without the benefit of body language, tone of voice and so on.

Now although I do not see the world as entirely physical, and believe that it is useful to recognise emotion, spirit, love, rationality and the like as different, that is not to postpone a spirituality to some next idealised world. I realise that you feel that dualism is the cause of many problems, and I agree to some extent, and I also recognise those moments of �oneness� as profound, but difference is not something to be dismissed in my opinion.

Thus when you emphasise

�The young and beautiful woman, and the old hag are one and the same.....�

I can relate to that too spiritually and socially, BUT not sexually or in terms of physical beauty. They are different.

Now for me the recognition of difference, albeit within the contexts of oneness too, presents potential challenges. Spiritual challenges in this life here and now. For me the spiritual feelings we get from beauty can quite easily be in contrast to other spiritual feelings. With regards to my friend, well I have never experienced what he went through personally. But I certainly would not have the confidence to dismiss his dilemma as being of his own making. The way he spoke to me made me realise that there could be two completely different spiritual things going on at the same time, and in conflict with each other.

Youth has a spirituality of its own, as does beauty, intelligence, maturity, family, culture, sex and so on. When it comes to beauty, if we live long enough, we all go through a major change, and one that is very public and personal. Some are unlucky enough to be born deformed and so on.

Now I know that you reject dualism. But I like many people do not. So spirituality is important to me, but very difficult to define. And if there is such a thing as the very spiritual then there is the lack of it too. (Maybe even a complementary dark side. Dualism takes many forms.) For me, who accepts the difficulties of interplay, physical beauty (and sexual attraction) presents us with very difficult spiritual dilemma�s, not least if as I do you recognise that beauty is spiritual.

I am not necessarily looking to square the circle, I can accept reality, but nevertheless I do not subscribe to your position of �hippy oneness�

that says it is obvious that there is no ideal solution, �been there done it�, so stop worrying about it. You may be right, but I am more open minded, and am interested in how others approach these problems. Not only that but there are different possibilities when it comes to pragmatism anyway. I might come across someones view of physical beauty and beauty that resolves these issues to some extent.

I respect your position and am interested in your perspective, but I can tell you that I have seen how physical beauty and the lack of it , has profoundly affected peoples lives in the negative. Yet I recognise it has a spirituality about it. As emotional pointed out, what does it mean that spirituality is handed out unequally? That is why I posited the view that physical beauty is indeed one of the biggest spiritual challenges that we face. To dismiss it as a small minded internal prejudice or a self imposed limitation is to deny that it is in fact a profound general challenge to all of us.

You adopt that position, and fair enough. We will have to differ with our attitudes towards the likes of my friend. For you it was

"Your friend's concern is really about himself, whether or not he wants to admit...."

for me he was unfortunate in experiencing a very strong spiritual pull in one direction, and another intensely strong spiritual pull in the opposite direction.

There are other examples i could give come to think of it, where two people already in marriages were forced to resist their extremely sudden and unexpected once in a lifetime attraction, out of family and religious loyalty. And they never forgot it,....... like my friend.

A missed opportunity, or a deep dilemma?

andy_d · 07-23-2003, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leyline
To dismiss it as a small minded internal prejudice or a self imposed limitation is to deny that it is in fact a profound general challenge to all of us.

Small minded internal prejudice and self imposed limitation is a profound general challenge for all of us.

Do you not agree?

Carol Massey · 07-23-2003, 04:14 AM

leyline,

Thanks leyline for your response. There is only one line there that I would like to address because although it may be your perception of what I think...it is inaccurate.

Sorry if I have given you that impression.

"Now I know that you reject dualism. "

The truth is that I "embrace" dualism, whereas in the western world at least there is that obvious striving for the good as opposed to evil, health as opposed to illness, riches as opposed to poverty, beauty as opposed to ugliness, life as opposed to death, and so on.

That is to deny dualism.

I am not saying that it is 'right' either way, but our differences may be due to our ages. I like the book of eccl. in the bible and in particular:

A TIME FOR ALL SEASONS....change comes to us all. As far as I know, yes.

07-23-2003, 05:54 AM

andy

"Small minded internal prejudice and self imposed limitation is a profound general challenge for all of us. "

yes i agree. But small mindedness and needless limitations are not positively spiritual. For me my friend was wrestling with two contrasting highly positive spiritual forces, that any of us can experience. I don't see him as limiting himself nor do i see him as prejudiced. On the contrary he is not a prejudiced man at all in my experience, and the way he pushed himself through the pain barrier against all medical advice shows that he is not a man who is generally adverse to self imposed limitations either, but is of considerable courage. As a single parent, who lost his girlfriend to a terminal illness he had depth in the way he handled it. I do not believe that your model of internal prejudice or self imposed limitation elucidates his story at all. Quite the opposite. The effect of meeting that woman, and the way it tore him apart, in my opinion was profound to the point that despite being confined to a wheel chair and in great pain, he got up and walked away. Unlike yourself i find it a story of great spiritual conflict. Tragic, touching and heroic. Even positive. Who knows where he would be now if he hadn't met her and experienced those feelings? It's the kind of experience i consider it a privelege to be confided in. There are many who would have criticised him or secretly held a negative view. I am not one of them.

I am not going to say anymore about my friend. You and carol did not know him, and even allowing for that you cannot imagine under your scheme of things that it wasn't self imposed. I accept that. We differ. I am not interested in persuading either of you. My experience of life and how i interpret it is different to yours.

Carol Massey · 07-23-2003, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by andy_d
Neither do I, but I envy him the equanimity it gives him. He's spared from the kind of mistake your friend made (albeit at a heavy price)

Carol: "he gets no pat on the back from me for shying away from the gift that this fine woman held out to him"

True. Are any of us really that much better though?

No. That is precisely the point I was trying to make. Which leads us from judging others to feeling compassion.

07-23-2003, 08:36 AM

Carol

your 'embrace' of dualism feels more like a bear hug to me. The gangsterism of 'oneness'. "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

Carol Massey · 07-23-2003, 05:39 PM

Today I heard that udai and usai (or whatever their names), Saddam's boys died in Mosul.

Just for the record, I can hear my mentor repeating to me when I ask a couple of years ago why Timothy McVeigh had to die....

"the truth is "he" never lived."

so with udai and housai (?)......

hmmm....first time I understood 'twiceborn'....

(A biggie bearhug to you, leyline.....

)

Pardon, just a random thought that came out of the field.

07-24-2003, 04:16 AM

Hi Carol

Thanks for the hug. My eyesight has become blurred and everything has merged into one. I am staggering around with my arms out in front of me��.. I have just tried to eat some string.

so with udai and housai (?)......

oh they lived alright. And if the media portrayal was only half accurate, good bloody riddance.

Actually I am against the death penalty in general because so many mistakes are made, and maybe there were innocents killed in that gun battle too. But the physical existence of those two guys presented a real spiritual challenge, and I wouldn�t be quick to criticise their killing under the circumstances.

Having said that ideally I believe that killers and torturers and the like should be given a clean, solitary cell, adequate food, some books, a tv and isolation from influencing the outside world. My idea of prison is that it should be bearable for an innocent person to survive. A good person wrongfully imprisoned would have a chance of not becoming bitter or damaged by a genuine mistake. A bad person would hate their loss of freedom to use and abuse others.

Carol Massey · 07-24-2003, 02:57 PM

leyline said: "Thanks for the hug. My eyesight has become blurred and everything has merged into one. I am staggering around with my arms out in front of me��.. I have just tried to eat some string.".

Some who understand the concept of a unified field have no problem with inner and outer connectedness, but you, leyline.....a frayed knot!

Regarding the treatment of those incarcerated, IMHO:

I think they should be given the basic building blocks for creating their own environment in which they live. Nothing should be done for them, provided they have everything they need to create the kind of existence that they desire. (A likely place might be a planet on the far side of the solar system, to allow them to live and learn the value of interdependent relationships).

Yes, I think that's a good plan.

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07-23-2003, 03:23 AM	#112
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	Carol I can appreciate to some extent where you are coming from, your acceptance, even insistence, that the physical here and now is more than enough. That you are not limited to the scientific view of the physical world, and spirituality abounds but not in an idealised sensed. You prefer to get real. At least that is how I am trying to grasp how you relate to life and I am sure this is a gross over simplification. But that�s ok, because as you noted before it is sometimes difficult to get the full meaning without the benefit of body language, tone of voice and so on. Now although I do not see the world as entirely physical, and believe that it is useful to recognise emotion, spirit, love, rationality and the like as different, that is not to postpone a spirituality to some next idealised world. I realise that you feel that dualism is the cause of many problems, and I agree to some extent, and I also recognise those moments of �oneness� as profound, but difference is not something to be dismissed in my opinion. Thus when you emphasise �The young and beautiful woman, and the old hag are one and the same.....� I can relate to that too spiritually and socially, BUT not sexually or in terms of physical beauty. They are different. Now for me the recognition of difference, albeit within the contexts of oneness too, presents potential challenges. Spiritual challenges in this life here and now. For me the spiritual feelings we get from beauty can quite easily be in contrast to other spiritual feelings. With regards to my friend, well I have never experienced what he went through personally. But I certainly would not have the confidence to dismiss his dilemma as being of his own making. The way he spoke to me made me realise that there could be two completely different spiritual things going on at the same time, and in conflict with each other. Youth has a spirituality of its own, as does beauty, intelligence, maturity, family, culture, sex and so on. When it comes to beauty, if we live long enough, we all go through a major change, and one that is very public and personal. Some are unlucky enough to be born deformed and so on. Now I know that you reject dualism. But I like many people do not. So spirituality is important to me, but very difficult to define. And if there is such a thing as the very spiritual then there is the lack of it too. (Maybe even a complementary dark side. Dualism takes many forms.) For me, who accepts the difficulties of interplay, physical beauty (and sexual attraction) presents us with very difficult spiritual dilemma�s, not least if as I do you recognise that beauty is spiritual. I am not necessarily looking to square the circle, I can accept reality, but nevertheless I do not subscribe to your position of �hippy oneness� that says it is obvious that there is no ideal solution, �been there done it�, so stop worrying about it. You may be right, but I am more open minded, and am interested in how others approach these problems. Not only that but there are different possibilities when it comes to pragmatism anyway. I might come across someones view of physical beauty and beauty that resolves these issues to some extent. I respect your position and am interested in your perspective, but I can tell you that I have seen how physical beauty and the lack of it , has profoundly affected peoples lives in the negative. Yet I recognise it has a spirituality about it. As emotional pointed out, what does it mean that spirituality is handed out unequally? That is why I posited the view that physical beauty is indeed one of the biggest spiritual challenges that we face. To dismiss it as a small minded internal prejudice or a self imposed limitation is to deny that it is in fact a profound general challenge to all of us. You adopt that position, and fair enough. We will have to differ with our attitudes towards the likes of my friend. For you it was "Your friend's concern is really about himself, whether or not he wants to admit...." for me he was unfortunate in experiencing a very strong spiritual pull in one direction, and another intensely strong spiritual pull in the opposite direction. There are other examples i could give come to think of it, where two people already in marriages were forced to resist their extremely sudden and unexpected once in a lifetime attraction, out of family and religious loyalty. And they never forgot it,....... like my friend. A missed opportunity, or a deep dilemma?

07-23-2003, 04:14 AM	#114
Carol Massey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Springfield Missouri Posts: 86	leyline, Thanks leyline for your response. There is only one line there that I would like to address because although it may be your perception of what I think...it is inaccurate. Sorry if I have given you that impression. "Now I know that you reject dualism. " The truth is that I "embrace" dualism, whereas in the western world at least there is that obvious striving for the good as opposed to evil, health as opposed to illness, riches as opposed to poverty, beauty as opposed to ugliness, life as opposed to death, and so on. That is to deny dualism. I am not saying that it is 'right' either way, but our differences may be due to our ages. I like the book of eccl. in the bible and in particular: A TIME FOR ALL SEASONS....change comes to us all. As far as I know, yes.

07-23-2003, 05:54 AM	#115
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	andy "Small minded internal prejudice and self imposed limitation is a profound general challenge for all of us. " yes i agree. But small mindedness and needless limitations are not positively spiritual. For me my friend was wrestling with two contrasting highly positive spiritual forces, that any of us can experience. I don't see him as limiting himself nor do i see him as prejudiced. On the contrary he is not a prejudiced man at all in my experience, and the way he pushed himself through the pain barrier against all medical advice shows that he is not a man who is generally adverse to self imposed limitations either, but is of considerable courage. As a single parent, who lost his girlfriend to a terminal illness he had depth in the way he handled it. I do not believe that your model of internal prejudice or self imposed limitation elucidates his story at all. Quite the opposite. The effect of meeting that woman, and the way it tore him apart, in my opinion was profound to the point that despite being confined to a wheel chair and in great pain, he got up and walked away. Unlike yourself i find it a story of great spiritual conflict. Tragic, touching and heroic. Even positive. Who knows where he would be now if he hadn't met her and experienced those feelings? It's the kind of experience i consider it a privelege to be confided in. There are many who would have criticised him or secretly held a negative view. I am not one of them. I am not going to say anymore about my friend. You and carol did not know him, and even allowing for that you cannot imagine under your scheme of things that it wasn't self imposed. I accept that. We differ. I am not interested in persuading either of you. My experience of life and how i interpret it is different to yours.

07-23-2003, 08:36 AM	#117
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	Carol your 'embrace' of dualism feels more like a bear hug to me. The gangsterism of 'oneness'. "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

07-23-2003, 05:39 PM	#118
Carol Massey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Springfield Missouri Posts: 86	Today I heard that udai and usai (or whatever their names), Saddam's boys died in Mosul. Just for the record, I can hear my mentor repeating to me when I ask a couple of years ago why Timothy McVeigh had to die.... "the truth is "he" never lived." so with udai and housai (?)...... hmmm....first time I understood 'twiceborn'.... (A biggie bearhug to you, leyline..... ) Pardon, just a random thought that came out of the field.

07-24-2003, 04:16 AM	#119
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	Hi Carol Thanks for the hug. My eyesight has become blurred and everything has merged into one. I am staggering around with my arms out in front of me��.. I have just tried to eat some string. so with udai and housai (?)...... oh they lived alright. And if the media portrayal was only half accurate, good bloody riddance. Actually I am against the death penalty in general because so many mistakes are made, and maybe there were innocents killed in that gun battle too. But the physical existence of those two guys presented a real spiritual challenge, and I wouldn�t be quick to criticise their killing under the circumstances. Having said that ideally I believe that killers and torturers and the like should be given a clean, solitary cell, adequate food, some books, a tv and isolation from influencing the outside world. My idea of prison is that it should be bearable for an innocent person to survive. A good person wrongfully imprisoned would have a chance of not becoming bitter or damaged by a genuine mistake. A bad person would hate their loss of freedom to use and abuse others.

07-24-2003, 02:57 PM	#120
Carol Massey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Springfield Missouri Posts: 86	leyline said: "Thanks for the hug. My eyesight has become blurred and everything has merged into one. I am staggering around with my arms out in front of me��.. I have just tried to eat some string.". Some who understand the concept of a unified field have no problem with inner and outer connectedness, but you, leyline.....a frayed knot! Regarding the treatment of those incarcerated, IMHO: I think they should be given the basic building blocks for creating their own environment in which they live. Nothing should be done for them, provided they have everything they need to create the kind of existence that they desire. (A likely place might be a planet on the far side of the solar system, to allow them to live and learn the value of interdependent relationships). Yes, I think that's a good plan.

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