Amos

Thanks copernicus but is that not exactly what I am trying to tell sullster?

Deep down I even hold that the Orthodox Church was behind the encampment and persecution of many/most/all of Russia's great authors (for good reason, I might add, that remain unbeknown to them).

It is true that I never read from a history perspective in effort to learn about history.

sullster

Sorry, Amos, it is not a question of one of us "winning". I look at issues with a historical perspective and I get touchy when some points are not viewed as I have learned. I respect that you wish to express a unique point of view and you do indeed have a deep way of looking at things.
When I studied the history of Russia, I learned that Russia has always felt threatened by the West and attracted to it at the same time. They have been invaded many times through their history and have reason to feel threatened. The Russian Church is Orthodox, but is also very much wrapped up in Russian nationalism. Joseph Stalin let the Church do some of its things during the Nazi invasion in order to fan the flames of nationalism during the war. I only ask that you read some Russian history, in addition to your other readings.

Amos

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sullster:

Sullster, I don't know why you are so upset because I agreed and wrote that Russia is Catholic:<strong> "The Russian Orthodox Church is just a Catholic Church in Catholic country and therefore the national identity."</strong>

Just because they are slightly different does not make them opposite to Rome. They just emphasize different aspect as more significant which is probable much better for them at this time. I admire their Orthodoxy and would never want to change anything about it, in fact, if we could become more like them I'd be the first one to agree.

At one time I could have given you the reason why their Revolution was unavoidable (just as our Revolution was unavoidable) but I forget the details and can't support them now.

Maybe your misunderstanding is that I wish to convert them to Rome? Never, Rome and Russia is like twin towers, side by side.

Amos

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

sullster

Amos, Your feelings of inclusiveness for the Russian Orthodox Church with the Roman Catholic Church is still very much your own interpretation. On a level which you are defining such sameness, it may very well be true to your definitions of theology and dogma.

The historical record shows otherwise. The Russian Orthodox Church was a descendant of the Great Schism between the Eastern and Western Roman Empire after christianity had become the state religion. Doctrinal and ritualistic differences had developed to an extent where the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope in Rome had both excommunicated each other. Each leader had claimed the divine authority to removal the other from office and thus also to condemn their version of the religion as heresy. This event occurred around 1000 AD.

The Russian Church was established in Muscovy and after the capture of Constantinople by Islam, it considered itself the inheritor of Orthodoxy. This brings up the idea of Moscow being "The Third Rome". According to Russian Orthodox thinking, the first Rome fell to the heresy of the catholic church, the second Rome, Constaninople, fell to the false religion of Islam and thus the "third Rome" is Moscow. Thus by seeing itself as the "third Rome", the Russian Orthodox Church is actually claiming to be the ONLY TRUE christian church.

I am sorry Amos, but the deeper historical roots contradict your catholic inclusiveness of the Russian Church. Maybe on levels which you think about religion, there is cohesiveness, but from history and culture.

If you were today to go to Russia and speak with an Orthodox priest, I am positive that your ideas would be rejected. You and he would agree on the general premises of theism and the original christian myth system but as to the relations and defining elements of the two churches, the Orthodox priest would not agree in the least with you. He would not agree that the religions are "twin towers". He would say that Orthodoxy is the only tower and the catholic church is an imposter.

ohwilleke

Amos, it is pretty absurd to say that the Russian Orthodox Church is Catholic. You would be closer to accurate saying that Lutherans or Episcopalians (who are direct descendants of the Catholic church and have similar liturgies and doctrines on many points) are Catholic. The only group of Christians less closely related to the Catholic Church are the Coptic Christians of Ethiopia.

One can always say that all Christians are part of the lower case "c" "catholic church", meaning the theoretical community of all Christians, and perhaps that is what your are trying to say, but the Russian Orthodox Church can't even agree with Western Christians on such simple issues as when Easter and Christmas are, how we should pray, or what the nature of the divinity of Jesus was (of course, I think they're both wrong).

Amos

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ohwilleke:
[QB]

Well I disagree and let me just say that they are welcome in our heaven and we are welcome in theirs. Nobody else can say the same (except Jews who really are not NT people).

As far as Christmas goes, the only reason why they celebrate it after New Year is to make sure that Easter will follow since Epipany is the first affirmation of a virgin birth. This now means that also a non-virgin birth is possible and one more reason to keep other religions away from theirs. To explain this would be to complicated for now.

We have several Russian Orthodox Catholics in our
parish -- which in itself does not means that much, I agree.

Amos

Amos

"Imposter," LOL, we sure are aren't we? The heroes of modern day to display the courage of this age.

Sullster I could be bishop in their Church and show them the difference between right and wrong. I would never tell them my secrets because a priests is not supposed to know or he would lose his devotion and urgency of the matter at hand.

Thanks, but I know (read about) the history of the Church and also the philosophy behind the Russian Language, which is a mixture of Greek, German and French. It was so designed to combine the wisdom of the Greeks, the power of the Germans and the love of the French. This is based on the belief that the language has a large influence on the destiny of the nation and so they aimed to become the most powerful nation in the world if they coined these three qualities into one language.

Edited to add that the Russain language is not very old (I forgot) and that it did not evolve from another language but was coined the way it is [today?].

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

copernicus

And I just want to weigh in on the side of Sullster and ohwilleke in this exchange. My original statement that the "Russian Orthodox Church is as 'Catholic' as the Greek Orthodox Church" should not be misinterpreted to mean that I think the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches are two sides of the same coin. Historically, the Pope and the Patriarch disagreed violently with each other on who should be considered the true leader of the Christian church. Indeed, the schism extended not just to these two major religious communities, but to several other Christian communities, not the least of which was the Coptic church.

As for the Russian Orthodox Church, it fell into violent schism when Peter the Great tried to modernize it. So-called Old Believers fled Peter's empire, many settling in Alaska and what was to become America's Pacific coast. Old Believers who remained were mercilously persecuted for using two fingers, instead of three, to cross themselves with. It tore Russia apart. Amos, you may be ecumenical in your outlook, but many of your "Christian" compatriots have spared no effort to prove that religious devotion is no protection from depravity and evil. Indeed, it is too often the excuse for depraved, immoral behavior.

The ultimate indictment of religion is that one can have "faith" in the truth of absolutely anything. The "true believers" are quite capable of committing torture, mass murder, and virtually any kind of atrocity.

copernicus

Amos, where did you get such claptrap from? Russian evolved out of the Slavic branch of Proto-Indo-European. It is as "old" as any other Indo-European language in existence, including English. It has nothing to do with Greek (Hellenic branch) or Romance languages such as French. You have been confused by the fact that Russian, like English, has been heavily influenced by French, which dominated European culture until the 18th century. The so-called "Greek" influence is only in matters such as religion (a Russian and Ukrainian variant of Orthodox Greek Religion) and the Russian cyrillic alphabet, which contains a number of Greek-inspired symbols.

Amos

You may be correct except for the fact that it has its own alphabet which is not just an influence.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>