Jamie_L

It seems to me that, all things considered, if everyone exacted vengence, we would live in a world that involved a much higher degree of harm on the whole than we would have if vengence was infrequent.

In other words, I believe vengence in general causes harm, and thus it is, in and of itself, immoral.

Jamie

excreationist

But *extreme* cases of vengeance aren't human nature! (or are they?) I mean if someone feels wronged by someone else, most people wouldn't normally rape and/or kill them... yet you said "vengeance is never wrong".

Monkeybot

What is vengeance? Does it have limits?

If someone killed my sister, and I were angry enough to consider killing their entire family a suitable retribution, would that be wrong? (Hey, it's not like it's never happened before) Or -- what if I only killed the murderer's sister, to let him know what it feels like? Or what if I decide not to kill him, but to make him suffer for the rest of his life, maybe by permanently disabling him or castrating him or something? Where do you draw the line?

Incidentally, the concept of "justice" was first established to prevent endless revenge-and-retaliation feuds (I kill your brother, so you kill me, so my brother kills you, so your other brother kills my brother, etc....); and to make sure the punishment fit the crime -- i.e. you can't kill somebody if they only steal from you or whatever.

excreationist

meritocrat:
What if a man's sister was murdered or killed accidently, but he assumed that her innocent best friend did it, so they killed the friend. The man believed he was getting revenge, which is just human nature after all. Is that wrong?
Or say a crazy man went on a shooting spree and killed ten people. The family of each one of them might want their revenge. One family could get personal revenge, but what can the others do? You can only kill a person once. They maybe could have arranged to torture the crazy man for a few decades, but the first family killed him too soon. So maybe the other families decide they'd kill one relative or friend of the crazy man for each loved one they lost. So nine friends and relatives of the dead crazy man would be killed. It would just be revenge, which is human nature.... is that wrong? According to you, "Vengeance is never wrong".

MzNeko

I always liked the saying "Living well is the best revenge."

At least for smaller wrongs it makes sense to me. If someone seeks to do you harm and not only do you overcome it, but end up doing better than you were before, it must frustrate the hell out of that person.

With some people I've dealt with, I've been far better served by the realization that I'm happier in my life than they are in theirs - at least so far as I can tell...

But I'm not ruling out a little sugar in the gas tank from time to time as appropriate.

Monkeybot

How about Nietzsche's idea that if someone does you a great injustice, you should dole out five small injustices in turn?

MzNeko

I haven't read much Nietzsche, but maybe I should. That sounds like an interesting idea.

Especially since those five small injustices are less likely to land you in prison than one great big one...

paul30

While the impulse to seek vengeance is understandable, taking vegeance almost always perpetuates a cycle of violence that grows.

Behaviorists state that punishment "depresses behavior." What this means in practice is that the person punished does NOT learn different (and one hopes, better) behavior, but learns to avoid getting caught.

This is why juries are not made up of the victim's relatives.

Personally, acting out vengeance may feel good; but socially it almost always has bad consequences.

keyser_soze

Did he kill your sister in an accident or by cold blood? If it was on purpose...I tell you what, I'll hold him down for you, you get the knife. I have a little medical background in there, I can assure you that we can keep him alive as long as you want. Certainly longer than he will want.

keyser_soze

You simply need to plan better if you don't want to go to jail. Yes, I am that little devil on your shoulder saying "go for it, bastard deserves it...."