Asha'man

Well obviously, my morality doesn't come from God.

Godless Sodomite

This may well be true, but the reality is that the superstitious use their imaginary friend as if it were a trump card that give their irrational arguments a credibility they wouldn't have otherwise. I could give a fuck what you think of gay sex or gay marriage--you aren't queer, it isn't anything that concerns you; and no one asked you--but even the president when he speaks can't think of a single good secular reason to deny me equality in my relationships. He defers to fables written by nomadic goathearders in the Bronze Age, who were so ignorant about science that they thought the world was flat and had a canopy. Absent the christ-speak, there isn't a rational reason in the world to treat me like a second-class citizen. The only talking ass I saw on Wednesday was that schmuck in the rose garden giving a press conference, but that's certainly not the talking ass the bible speaks of.

It is precisely because the theists think they are arguing rationally by interpreting our secular Constitution as allowing magic-thinking in influencing public law that xians like yourself need to be disabused of the notion that your god exists as anything more than a construct of your imagination. Until you and your fellow theists can produce a god for me to examine and verify, get him off the table of political discourse. It's not my job to demonstrate that your god is imaginary--that's the default position until you can demonstrate that gods not in evidence are indeed real.

-Jerry

factfinder

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, in effect, to argue against Christianity in order to impose one's own sense of morals is, in effect, an effort to surpress free speech, no? This would mean that their is some form of belief system that the 'non-believer' wishes to impose on the believer, in effect (rather than a disbelief).

Well, you've got a couple of problems here. First, we aren't talking about morality, so dump that one. Second, I can't speak for the rest of the 'Evil Atheist Conspiracy' but I'm not trying to impose anything on anybody. Then again, I don't think of exposing others to critical thinking as an 'imposition.'

Also keep in mind, the 'Evil Atheist Conspiracy' has yet to burn anyone at the stake. Now that is an imposition
__________________________________________________ _

O.K. if we're not talking about morality, what is it then? Why bother 'enlightening' anyone? What merit is there in doing so? How will that help the disillusioned Christian? We're all just dust in the wind, right? Why not ignore the Christian & move on?

Hmmm...Evil Atheist Conspiracy, is that what the motive is? I certainly didn't assert that. Where's that website?

factfinder

Quote:
__________________________________________________ _
---Until you and your fellow theists can produce a god for me to examine and verify, get him off the table of political discourse. It's not my job to demonstrate that your god is imaginary--that's the default position until you can demonstrate that gods not in evidence are indeed real.---
_________________________________________________


I didn't give you that job nor am I an apologist for G.W. Bush (Hey! I'm Canadian after all). I argue that some of the ethical arguments that you say Christians put forth would be put forth by another group in a purely secular society.

I asked for your motive to discredit Christianity.

Mageth

Originally posted by factfinder:
However, these debates would exist regardless of whether there were professing Christians in the world. i.e. there are non-believers who would debate on either side of 'ethical' law.

And then:

Where does this morality come from? What makes you believe in morality? What makes you hate anything?

Umm, you yourself argued that ethics would exist without Christianity. So why the statement that seems to imply there is no place where this morality could come from?

braces_for_impact

I don't believe I ever read that in his post. But anyone who bases his beliefs on evidence rather than faith does have a superior method for gathering information. I'm sorry if this offends you.


I haven't seen anyone here say that either. Perhaps you'r getting a tad defensive?

You have to understand our caution. In the past we have had people just as you, come into these boards and insist that are on a "fact finding mission" to understand why atheists argue so hard against something they don't believe in. These same people usually either make no claim to any religion or declare themselves neutral somehow, in an attempt to lure said atheists into complacency for the purpose of 'divining the truth'.

Soon after, they attempt to build a case insisting that the atheists really do believe in god, and are simply denying his existence. Usually they accompany this accusation with some explanation for the atheists behavior like "You were hurt by people calling themselves Christians" or "You simply don't want to be held accountable for your evil actions, so you deny god." It is usually the habit of these theists to begin to become defensive quite quickly when their arguments are refuted, and the atheists they speak to are not conforming to their expectations.

I find it ironic really. This happens quite often, you see, and it is always the same people who enter here under false (dishonest) pretenses that claim a superior morality handed down from god. Lying for Jesus if you will, seems to be ok.

Godless Sodomite

Not at all. There are plenty of xians foxy enough to work their scam into huge bank accounts allowing them and their families to live fat. It's pure exploitation, but it could be considered clever.

And there are plenty of smart xians who are brilliant thinkers in areas other than examining their theology. While there are lots of xian thinkers with very complex thoughts, none of their apologetics make a lick of sense. Don't forget, claiming that god exists is an existential claim--you can't expect to be seen as rational regarding god belief until you can present empirical evidence we all can examine. I've seen attempts to demonstrate god exists by semantic argument and logical argument. Were those arguments convincing (and I don't find them so), they still wouldn't demonstrate a god exists in the real world.

-Jerry

factfinder

Quote:

--Well obviously, my morality doesn't come from God. --

_____________________________________________



So your morality then comes from _____________________
(fill in the blank)

(e.g. a chain of random, irrational electrical impulses in the brain; the evolutionary instinct to survive which has, over the years, built a sense of 'moral' code conducive to survival, etc.)

I'm looking for the cause of you having a moral code.

King Rat

Xtians tend to believe that morality is their exclusive purvue, and that morality would not exist without the 10 commandments. This is a disproved, faulty, and dull old axe.

I don't, really. I'm way, way, way too busy working on getting myself together. Again exposing someone to critical thinking isn't an evangelical pursuit for me, it's just a natural extension of my everyday life. I've never sought out anyone to deconvert, although I have helped many on the path of deconversion.

I'd love to, but xtians can't seem to ignore me. As is evidenced by your seeking out an atheist discussion board, instead of the other way around.

You've found us, now get to preaching, just think of all these lost souls you could add to your 'riches in heaven.'

Godless Sodomite

I've given you my motive: I am a second-class citizen in America because I am gay and an atheist. I've never heard a secular reason for the oppression. Xianity isn't just false, I find it vile and repulsive.

-Jerry