The AntiChris

You seem to be simultaneously disagreeing and agreeing with me.

To clarify:

The point I was trying to make was that, because of the particular nature of rape, it is more likely to be committed by someone who has previously entertained the idea of rape as pleasurable (as opposed to someone who finds the idea of deriving pleasure from rape completely absurd).

I have to say, personally, I find your analogy with drug-taking particularly inapt. You go on to almost suggest that rape is just another one of those naughty-but-nice weaknesses men might yield to given sufficient temptation and insufficient willpower.

I'm no expert, but this is not how I see rape.

Chris

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: The AntiChris ]</p>

HelenM

free12thinker

Ditto here. There is nothing immoral about thoughts. Thoughts are what they are. They are tucked away, unable to negatively impact someone else, and therefore, they are not immoral.

The AntiChris

HelenSL

Ok, there are a number of misunderstandings here!

If you recall, I used the word "aversion". By this I meant someone who felt a positive aversion to the thought of rape being in any way pleasurable as opposed to someone who acknowledged that, although potentially pleasurable, rape was "wrong".

You're not reading what I said correctly.

First, I said the drug-taking analogy was inapt. By this I mean that the desires that might induce one to take drugs or to commit rape are very different. More importantly, the outcomes are very different. Also you seem to be using a particularly narrow definition of "drug-taking". Presumably, when you talk about drug-taking, you mean illegal drugs (not tea, coffee, alcohol etc) and, I assume, not all illegal drugs - unless you see no moral difference between rape and smoking marijuana?

Second, I then said "You go on to say....". The "naughty-but-nice" comment was prompted by your:

It just appeared to me that these words seem more appropriately applied to the everyday, minor temptations we all face than to rape. I read into your words the tacit assumption that rape is one of these everyday temptations potentially faced by all men. If you did not mean that, then I apologise.

Hope this helped.

Chris

HelenM

Hi Chris

Well, I don't think I divide things up so much as you.

I think of people as made up of a complex of desires and feelings and thoughts and beliefs and some of them contradict each other.

I think the rapist is and I think the most heroic person you can think of is, also.

Maybe this is my Christian teaching speaking but I do believe 'there but for the grace of God go I' - that someone who acts out in certain ways isn't necessarily a 'way worse' person than someone who doesn't. There can be lots of reasons why one person refrains and one acts out.

Of course - I understand that society couldn't function if we didn't punish/put safely away those who act out in destructive ways.

But I think that the more we try to say outward behavior is completely different from inward thoughts, the more we are setting ourselves up for all kinds of problems personally/individually and as a society...i.e. if we say that fantasizing atrocities is ok, I think we'll see that some of that gets acted out and we'll regret it, down the road, and realize that it's not wise, to draw the line only at outward behavior.

But no, you can't make thoughts a thought crime. But by condoning fantasizing of evil acts, I think you will see more of them actually happening...

That's what I believe...maybe I'm wrong...

Chris I hope you don't mind that I answered in general. Yes I meant illegal drugs. Yes maybe I misconstrued 'aversion' to be less than you meant it to be...but...hmmm...no, I still think people sometimes do things they never thought they would. In times of crisis or desperation or anger...I think it can happen that they do things - and then despise themselves for 'sinking that low' (I'm saying, this is what they think). I do believe that happens to people.

love
Helen

The AntiChris

HelenSL

Well, this is the whole point of my ramblings on this thread.

I can personally apply this maxim to almost any human atrocity. In other words I can imagine the circumstances and warped thinking that might lead an individual to perpetrate the most loathsome of acts - except rape. For me, it seems that one has to be a particular "type" of person to commit this act. So, for someone to fantasize about rape would, on the face of it, seem to be a good indicator of that person's propensity to commit the act.

To get back on topic, I think it is totally pointless to attribute moral values to thoughts. However, people who can imagine deriving pleasure from committing rape do give me cause for concern.

Chris

HelenM

It's interesting that you set 'rape' apart. Have you considered that this is more about you and your own values and what you find most reprehensible, than being an objective distinction, obvious 'to all'?

Personally I agree with the poster who said rape is about power.

And I'd say it's worse to seek pleasure from deliberately inflicting pain and terror on other people.

Maybe rape can be included as a way of doing that, but, torturing people is a wider category and isn't quite the same, necessarily. I think someone who would say, mutilate a person but leave them alive...that would be as bad and in some cases worse...to me.

What is it about rape that makes you set it apart from other behavior? What do you think, Chris? Don't you think that if you consider your reasons, you'll probably find that whatever the reason is, it applies to other behavior also, to some degree? And you'll find a continuum all the way from what you consider acceptable, to rape?

I find that's how most things are - there's a continuum rather than a cut-off point. But civilly we have drawn a line - I know that. I.e. people might use work resources for personal reasons all the time (phones, copies, the handy 'supplies' room), but it's not actually 'stealing' that will lead to punishment until you try to take your work laptop home permanently...

love
Helen

The AntiChris

HelenSL

That's easy. It was because it was suggested on this thread that everyone had a rape "fantasy".

I'd feel exactly the same about anyone fantasizing about seeking "pleasure from deliberately inflicting pain and terror on other people" - it would give me equal cause for concern.

Anyone who admitted to having fantasies which indicated a pathological indifference to human suffering would worry me.

Chris

HelenM

Hi Chris

It sounds like our thinking is at least somewhat aligned on these issues, then...

"would worry me"

Why - because they have them? Because they are open enough about it to admit it? What would you do about being worried about it?

Do you think any sort of preventive action should be taken against people who admit to having fantasies of wanting to inflict pain and fear on others? In case they might 'act out' their fantasies sometime?

Should they be put on some kind of psych meds? Should people be notified that they might be a 'danger'?

Are they more dangerous/sick than those who don't admit it? Maybe those who don't admit it simply have learned not to admit it - they might not feel it's any less ok to fantasize that way than those who do admit it.

All of this - I realize - is about public and personal safety and security and civic order more than it's about morality per se...but I think they are linked, myself.

love
Helen

tronvillain

The AntiChris:
Of course, it is not apparent that such fantasizing necessarily indicates a pathological indifference to human suffering.