Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrKrinkles · 12-10-2002, 11:52 PM

I thought that people might be interested in seeing a Christian apologist rewrite history in regards to the Inquisitions. He minimalizes it horrors and seems to try and justify it as an effort, however misguided, of maintaining social order. He also tries to distance the Catholic Church from responsibility for it.

<a href="http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html" target="_blank">http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html</a>

Quote:

"One may as well credit Christianity for making the Inquisition less severe than it would have been had it been conducted by secular authorities addressing the same social fears and concerns!"

(snip)

"Why was there an Inquisition? Stalcup [13] asks the honest question, 'How could the leaders of the church reconcile the terror and destruction wrought by the Inquisition with the doctrine of mercy taught by Christ?' The answer she gives is a familiar one -- one we have also seen given in answer to such questions as, 'Why would a God of love order the Canaanites exterminated?' or 'Why does Proverbs teach corporal punishment?' Eventually different forms of the Inquisition grew up in different places for different reasons. But in terms of why and started, the simple answer is that the Inquisition was seen as an instrument of social survival."

(snip)

"Kamen [K60, 203] notes that, 'Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition....for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability.'"

Brooks

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: MrKrinkles ]

Pierre · 12-11-2002, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Statistically, over the life of the Spanish Inquisition and in spite of spurts of major use, torture was "used infrequently" [K188] and only in cases of heresy [K189]; despite possible claims of Skeptics, there was not enough sophistication in the Inquisitors to use torture for the purpose of brainwashing. "A comparison with the cruelty and mutilation common in secular tribunals shows the Inquisition in a relatively favourable light

Why you lucky so-and-so, we are only going to torture you for half a day, if this was a secular tribunal, we would have been busy with you for a full day. And that is not all... Be glad that we are too dumb to brainwash you…so we’ll stick to burning your fingers and toes off.

Praise the Lord, o lucky one!

Vesica · 12-11-2002, 07:56 AM

Okay for all my arguing that history does not support the church being solely responsible for the horrors of the Inquisition or the European Witch Trials....

That is riduclous! Maybe we can bludgeon him to death with his own book?!?

B. H. Manners · 12-11-2002, 05:04 PM

To be honest growing up in the Church of Christ I never could understand why COCer's would want let alone support freedom of religion. The Church of Christ was the one and only church and it seemed to me that allowing other denominations (let alone religions and atheists) the freedom to spread their views was paramount to tolerating and helping spread error. After all if we would punish someone who took another's life unjustly why would we allow someone to steal someones soul and say it was okay.

Another problem I could not resolve was Romans 13. In Romans 13 God created civil government, therefore, it could only pass laws that were supported by the Bible and had to outlaw things that were biblically condemned.

I asked several preachers about this and they said freedom from religion was good in so far as making sure the true Church of Christ was kept from persecution, but if a CoC leader ever came to power and could successfully outlaw freedom of religion for other "false religions" he was bound biblically to do so.

I look back and scare myself when I see what I used to think as opposed to now.

B. H. Manners · 12-11-2002, 05:07 PM

Ask JP this:

"Are you saying that the Inquisition, at least in principle, is Biblically justified despite the occurrences during the Middle Ages?"

NOGO · 12-12-2002, 07:32 AM

Quote:

B. H. Manners
I look back and scare myself when I see what I used to think as opposed to now.

I always say that the biggest problem with religious believers is the very thing that they glorify the most that is their lack of self doubt.

B. H. Manners · 12-12-2002, 09:27 AM

Heah!

Let's be good internet neighbors and invite Mr. Holding over here for a visit. If no one has any objections and it has not already been done, I am willing to extend the courtesy on our behalf.

BH

Steven Carr · 12-13-2002, 03:34 AM

[QUOTE]
<a href="http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html" target="_blank">http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html

</a>

'Why would a God of love order the Canaanites exterminated?

[/QB]/QUOTE]

OK, why would the God of love order Canaanite babies to be exterminated?

Steven Carr · 12-13-2002, 03:45 AM

Quote:

I thought that people might be interested in seeing a Christian apologist rewrite history in regards to the Inquisitions. He minimalizes it horrors and seems to try and justify it as a effort, however misguided, of maintaining social order. He also tries to distance the Catholic Church from responsibility for it.

<a href="http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html" target="_blank">http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html</a>

'The CC moreover believed that the eternal soul's fate was of more importance than the body -- which runs as a match to what we have observed elsewhere that the short-term destruction of peoples like the Amalekites and Canaanites are understandable in light of the long-term goals of social survival for people as a whole. To the Inquisitors, a few moments of pain on earth was a necessary price for saving someone from eternal torment. Skeptics may claim that their priorities were wrong, but they can't fault them as much for their motives (though again, system abuses in plenty also took place).'

And, I imagine, Hitler justified the short term destruction of the Jews because of his long-term goals (A thousand year Reich is pretty long term).

I think we ought to invite some Muslims to torture Mr. Holding to save him from the Hell reserved for people who believe in the Trinity. After all, who can fault my motives in this suggestion :-)

Steven Carr · 12-13-2002, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Carr:


'The CC moreover believed that the eternal soul's fate was of more importance than the body -- which runs as a match to what we have observed elsewhere that the short-term destruction of peoples like the Amalekites and Canaanites are understandable in light of the long-term goals of social survival for people as a whole. To the Inquisitors, a few moments of pain on earth was a necessary price for saving someone from eternal torment. Skeptics may claim that their priorities were wrong, but they can't fault them as much for their motives (though again, system abuses in plenty also took place).'

And Holding denies eternal torment, so his justification that the Inquisition believed they were saving people from eternal torment is rather hypocritical.

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12-11-2002, 07:56 AM	#3
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	Okay for all my arguing that history does not support the church being solely responsible for the horrors of the Inquisition or the European Witch Trials.... That is riduclous! Maybe we can bludgeon him to death with his own book?!?

12-11-2002, 05:04 PM	#4
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	To be honest growing up in the Church of Christ I never could understand why COCer's would want let alone support freedom of religion. The Church of Christ was the one and only church and it seemed to me that allowing other denominations (let alone religions and atheists) the freedom to spread their views was paramount to tolerating and helping spread error. After all if we would punish someone who took another's life unjustly why would we allow someone to steal someones soul and say it was okay. Another problem I could not resolve was Romans 13. In Romans 13 God created civil government, therefore, it could only pass laws that were supported by the Bible and had to outlaw things that were biblically condemned. I asked several preachers about this and they said freedom from religion was good in so far as making sure the true Church of Christ was kept from persecution, but if a CoC leader ever came to power and could successfully outlaw freedom of religion for other "false religions" he was bound biblically to do so. I look back and scare myself when I see what I used to think as opposed to now.

12-11-2002, 05:07 PM	#5
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Ask JP this: "Are you saying that the Inquisition, at least in principle, is Biblically justified despite the occurrences during the Middle Ages?"

12-12-2002, 09:27 AM	#7
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Heah! Let's be good internet neighbors and invite Mr. Holding over here for a visit. If no one has any objections and it has not already been done, I am willing to extend the courtesy on our behalf. BH

12-13-2002, 03:34 AM	#8
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	[QUOTE] <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html" target="_blank">http://www.tektonics.org/spaninq.html </a> 'Why would a God of love order the Canaanites exterminated? [/QB]/QUOTE] OK, why would the God of love order Canaanite babies to be exterminated?

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