Wyrdsmyth

You never get God, you only get men talking about God.

Theists, repeat this over and over again, like a mantra.

It is the mantra of de-conversion.

WJ

Yea, I wish atheists too would just stay silent on the whole issue. God doesn't exist; next question. It makes atheism 'just another religion'.

(Sorry, but I couldn't resist.) BTW, shouldn't this be in the 'God' forum? Oops, there is actually a 'forum' to discuss God? How strange

Sounds like another paradox...

Walrus

PS Hey wait a minute, what part of the Burg are you from? I was born and raised in them parts! How yuns doing?

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

Wyrdsmyth

Yeah, as long as there are theist proselytizers and apologists insisting we ought to believe, there will be atheist anti-apologists "fighting the good fight," saying there just aren't compelling enough reasons to believe. As long even one theist wants to define me as being in denial, in the hands of the Devil, deluded, a blight to our society, or simply wrong in my nonbelief, I am going to keep pointing out that there is no manifestation of god, only the manifestation of human chatterboxes who talk about gods. If you mean religion in the strict Latin of 'bound together,' then I guess, yeah, atheism is "just another religion" in that simple, pared-down sense -- people bound together by a similar trait, a lack of belief in gods. But I also consider myself an aleprechaunist, bound together with all the other aleprechaunists of the world. Doesn't that sound a bit silly, though, when we put it that way?

How strange that it isn't called the "Nonexistence of God(s)" forum? What's the paradox?

I'm actually from Butler, north of Pittsburgh. Things are going pretty well, here, overall. The Pirates have had a good start this year, and the weather is fine, but the Fort Pitt bridge is currently closed and that's annoying everyone. Thanks for asking!

GunnerJ

WJ

Hi w!

"...I am going to keep pointing out that there is no manifestation of god, only the manifestation of human chatterboxes who talk about gods."

I'd just say ignore them. (Logically, things won't change; God does not exist.) I know it is hard to do, I get sucked into those discussions too. I'm a Christian and really don't care what people think about me or anything like that. My truth lives inside me. Just like your's or anyone else's truth does. Choices have to made one way or another, at some juncture (volitional existence). The only time I'll gt excited enough to respond to an issue about the concept of God's existence is when it relates to logic. Aside from that, it is a personal relationship issue that really can't be articulated objectively to prove physical existence-obviously. Consider the NDE. Do you/I believe it? Well, unless you've either had one yourself, or you take the person's word apriori, or are already a believer, you are naturally apt to be sceptical. That's perfectly normal. I have doubts when people tell me things about unrelated subjects all the time. (Even in Christianity Jesus lived in the physical realm and folks didn't believe what he said... .)

Anyway, to answer your specific question though, the paradox exists [ie, a non-existence of God discussion] because if you [an atheist] are saying something about something that [is believed] doesn't exist, why say anything at all?

Well, enough about that. I left the burg in 82 when I was 23 when things got bad (I'm 42 now). But was born downtown and enjoyed all the wonderful sports and professional entertainment growing up (lived on the east side-Delmont). I do miss part of that. It will never be the same; 70's ,stillers, yada yada(going home from hockey games late at night with the city sky illuminating from all the blast furnaces..I guess it's good the polution is gone though). Many, many, more good memories, too numerous to mention.

I enjoyed chatting. Go Kordell!

Walrus

Wyrdsmyth

Interesting. So for you, your belief in God is primarily built on a personal relationship, as in a religious experience of some sort that you've actually had? I guess the point I was initially trying to make was related to this. I may be misunderstanding you, but let's just say you've had a personal religious experience in which Christ has manifested to you, to assure with certainty that he exists and Christianity is true. My point was, even if this is the case, what good is that experience to me? Or anyone else who doesn't believe? Surely, you can see from my point of view, there are no gods, no supernatural, no spirits, no ghosts... I never experience any of those things, I only experience people who claim to have had experiences... or scriptures written by people who claim to have had experiences.

I believe people have had Near Death Experiences... what I question is their interpretation of the experience. Are there possible naturalistic explanations, i.e. dreaming of this tunnel of light, dreaming of being disembodied, and so forth? After all, the brain still has activity in it. People who come back from that haven't really come back from "beyond" -- no one that I know of has ever come back from brain death. They're still alive, in the most medically technical sense of the word, when they have NDE...

Yeah, yeah, I know what you were saying. But I just don't think it's a paradox, any more than it would be if someone told me Sherlock Holmes exists and was a real person, and I argue with him and say, "No, he's fictional. He might be loosely based on certain people, but he is a fictional character."

Yeah, things seem to be picking up, now. The city looks much better than it did in '82. You left at a good time, sportswise, although you missed the Penguin and Pirate glory days of the early 90's and some pretty good runs made by the Stillers since then.

I still can't get over the Steelers AND the Rams losing to the Pats. God must be a Patriots fan, because that team seemed to just drop out of the sky -- their stats didn't show them being able to trounce both the Steelers and the Rams. Now that was a miracle!

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

WJ

Hey wrdmth!

I gotta roll right now. Let me catch up with you and continue this discussion later. BTW, I was definately checking out mario and jager in the early 90's and 'loving' it!!!! Yea, this year's Stillers was an erie thing. It bugged me so much I wanted to see if it was the player's or the coache's. It was the players. The gazzette said they practiced that same play up the middle via the ST coach, who is no longer there of course-political fall guy. I believe the players simply didn't execute. The thing we thought would happen, happened! Take away those two ST's scores, and you would've had a game.

I know, shoulda coulda woulda!

Sorry, but we'll get back to the God thing...

Walrus

The Other Michael

Person A's religious experience is Person B's hearsay.

cheers,
Michael

Samhain

TRUTH Is Objective.