Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sweep · 06-25-2003, 08:02 PM

the following story astounds me. It might not even make sense to some of you. I've experienced similar events. I'm even willing to tell my story if anyone asks, but it pales in comparison with the sickness in this little gem. I can't really say much more because I can think of little else at this moment other than the bleeting of sheep.

The question. is it right to get involved in other peoples affairs? When we see someone getting beaten or harmed? do we have the right. Is it immoral not to do something?

Quote:

Along a serene, tree-lined street in the Kew Gardens section of Queens, New York City, Catherine Genovese began the last walk of her life in the early morning hours of March 13, 1964. She had just left work, and it was 3:15 a.m. when she parked her red Fiat in the Long Island Railroad parking lot 20 feet from her apartment door at 82-70 Austin Street. As she locked her car door, she took notice of a figure in the darkness walking quickly toward her. She became immediately concerned as soon as the stranger began to follow her. �As she got out of the car she saw me and ran,� the man told the court later, �I ran after her and I had a knife in my hand.� She must have thought that since the entrance to her building was so close, she would reach safety within seconds. But the man was faster than she thought. At the corner of Austin Street and Lefferts Boulevard, there was a police call box, which linked directly to the 112th Precinct. She may have changed direction to call for assistance, but it was too late. The man caught up with Catherine, who was all of 5�1� and weighed just 105 pounds, near a street light at the end of the parking lot.

�I could run much faster than she could, and I jumped on her back and stabbed her several times,� the man later told cops.

�Oh my God! He stabbed me!� she screamed. �Please help me! Please help me!� Some apartment lights went on in nearby buildings. Irene Frost at 82-68 Austin Street heard Catherine�s screams plainly. �There was another shriek,� she later testified in court, �and she was lying down crying out.� Up on the seventh floor of the same building, Robert Mozer slid open his window and observed the struggle below.

�Hey, let that girl alone!� he yelled down into the street. The attacker heard Mozer and immediately walked away. There was quiet once again in the dark. The only sound was the sobbing of the victim, struggling to her feet. The lights in the apartment went out again. Catherine, bleeding badly from several stab wounds, managed to reach the side of her building and held onto the concrete wall. She staggered over to a locked door and tried to stay conscious. Within five minutes, the assailant returned. He stabbed her again.

�I�m dying! I�m dying!� she cried to no one. But several people in her building heard her screams. Lights went on once again and some windows opened. Tenants tried to see what was happening from the safety of their apartments. The attacker then ran to a white Chevy Corvair at the edge of the railroad parking lot and seemed to drive away. On the sixth floor of 82-40 Austin Street, Marjorie and Samuel Koshkin witnessed the attack from their window. �I saw a man hurry to a car under my window,� he said later. �He left and came back five minutes later and was looking around the area.� Mr. Koshkin wanted to call the police, but Mrs. Koshkin thought otherwise. �I didn�t let him,� she later said to the press. �I told him there must have been 30 calls already.� Miss Andre Picq, a French girl, who lived on the second floor, heard the commotion from her window. �I heard a scream for help, three times,� she later told the court, �I saw a girl lying down on the pavement with a man bending down over her, beating her.�

At about 3:25 a.m., Catherine, bleeding badly, stumbled to the rear of her apartment building and attempted to enter through a back entrance. The door was locked. She slid along the wall until she reached a hallway leading to the 2nd floor of 82-62 Austin Street but she fell to the vestibule floor. In the meantime, the man had returned again. �I came back because I knew I�d not finished what I set out to do,� he told cops later. He walked along the row of doors and calmly searched for the woman. He checked the first door and didn�t find her. He followed the trail of blood to the doorway where Catherine lay bleeding on the tiled floor. And there, while the defenseless victim lay semiconscious, incoherent from pain and loss of blood, he cut off her bra and underwear and sexually assaulted her. He then took $49 in cash from her wallet. �Why would I throw money away?� he asked the court at his trial. As Catherine moaned at his feet, probably unable to comprehend what had happened to her, the man viciously stabbed her again and killed her.

The man, who had selected his victim purely at random, ran to his car still parked where he left it. The entire event lasted at least 32 minutes. He said later that murder �was an idea that came into my mind, just as an idea might come into your mind, but I couldn�t put mine aside.� He jumped into his white sedan and fled the scene. A few blocks away, he came to a red light. He glanced over at the car idling next to him and saw that a man was asleep behind the wheel. The killer got out of his car and awakened the sleeping driver. He told the man he should go home. Then the killer, full of himself, $49 richer and not at all ashamed of what he had done, got back into his own car and drove off into the night.

'hey! let that girl alone! I can't sleep zzz snore, grunt!
here are the excuses made by those who could hear this poor woman crying for help.

Quote:

�We thought it was a lover�s quarrel!� said one tenant. �Frankly, we were afraid,� said another witness. One woman who didn�t want her name used said, �I didn�t want my husband to get involved.� Others had different explanations for their conduct. �We went to the window to see what was happening, but the light from our bedroom made it difficult to see the street.� There were lots of excuses. Maybe the most apathetic was the one who told reporters, �I was tired.� But the fact remained that dozens of people stood by and watched a woman being brutally assaulted for an extended period of time, and did nothing.

to me the natural response is to go: 'you sick shit. you scum. you herds of raw crap. you don't deserve to live. In fact, I feel like killing you for sport. how d'ya like those apples?' But, this is IIDB and were going to sit here with our thumbs up our asses and rationalise right? WRONG, were going to work out when its right and wrong to get involved! Were going to ignore my perverted dark side, and sick jokes, and get something out of this! I'm nearly sick to death of this pathetic race. I'm sick to death of me, and no-one is there to save me, but me.

"Can you hear the screaming of the lambs clarice?"

"yes, dr lechter. but I'm too busy polishing my nails to care.

winstonjen · 06-25-2003, 08:26 PM

It's not a case of 'letting die', it's a case of 'letting someone kill someone else'. That said, I cannot believe that not ONE person came down to the street to help the poor woman.

sweep · 06-25-2003, 08:42 PM

me neither friend. I've another thought now: Inititally I thought about what I would like to do to the killer. I've just got past reading the judges reaction:

Quote:

"I don�t believe in capital punishment, but when I see this monster,� he said, �I wouldn�t hesitate to pull the switch myself!�

And then I thought about that poor man that got chained to the back of a car and got dragged for miles. Two wrongs don't make a right. would you want that to happen to anyone, let alone someone who has such a lack of feeling for people who love life *sigh*

anyway, if you want to rad the article on Catherine Genovese, go to www.crimelibrary.com.

bless her, whoever she was

Calzaer · 06-25-2003, 08:43 PM

This event was a case study for my high school psych class. It's pretty disgusting... but also very telling in regards to our society.

winstonjen · 06-25-2003, 08:46 PM

Surely the people who didn't save her violated a duty of care. It disturbs me that they think 'someone else will do it', because if they ALL think that, NO ONE does anything!

:banghead:

sweep · 06-25-2003, 09:11 PM

thank u winstonjen, you've just raised the 'diffusion of responsibility' theory, mentioned in the Catherine Genovese article.
the more people there are to witness an act, the less likely people are to step out of line. Hmm.. does that make it any less wrong?

Jackalope · 06-26-2003, 12:39 AM

It seems to be a common human behavior. The other two studies you should read about are Stanley Milgram's experiements on obedience to authority (chilling), and the Stanford Prison Experiment. After taking SocPsych, it destroyed any illusions I had about humans being basically good. Humans often seem to be good despite themselves.

Another good study to look up is Solomon Asch's Social Pressure and Perception.

And difusion of responsiblity is one of those facts of life if you're a first responder. We were all taught to target specific people rather than yelling, "Will somebody call for help?" You make eye contact, you point at them, and you say, "You! Go call 911 right now!" Otherwise, it just doesn't happen.

winstonjen · 06-26-2003, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweep

the more people there are to witness an act, the less likely people are to step out of line. Hmm.. does that make it any less wrong?

Of course not.

AquaVita · 06-26-2003, 06:38 AM

I'm not even sure if I have words to express my digust.

Not one of these people could even be bothered to call the police immediatley? I would have called the cops and THEN gone downstairs to beat the living shit out of this guy.

I've done it before when someone was assualting a fellow human being...christ, I still cannot believe this.

southernhybrid · 06-26-2003, 07:10 AM

I was 15 years old and living just outside of New York City when that event happened. For weeks, it was discussed in the media, and people were very upset. Everyone said they would have called for help had they been there. They weren't there so one can only wonder if that would have been the case. I think when one lives in a very large metro area, it's easy to become apathetic to those around you. It's also easy to think that someone else already called the police, I guess. I'm not justifying it or trying to explain it but it does seem to be very common behavior.

Think about all the times there's been somone trying to commit suicide by jumping off of a bridge and bystanders watch and shout, "Jump!" That's pretty sad too, isn't it?

06-25-2003, 09:11 PM	#6
sweep Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: sugar factory Posts: 873	good point thank u winstonjen, you've just raised the 'diffusion of responsibility' theory, mentioned in the Catherine Genovese article. the more people there are to witness an act, the less likely people are to step out of line. Hmm.. does that make it any less wrong?

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06-25-2003, 08:26 PM	#2
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	It's not a case of 'letting die', it's a case of 'letting someone kill someone else'. That said, I cannot believe that not ONE person came down to the street to help the poor woman.

06-25-2003, 08:43 PM	#4
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	This event was a case study for my high school psych class. It's pretty disgusting... but also very telling in regards to our society.

06-25-2003, 08:46 PM	#5
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	Surely the people who didn't save her violated a duty of care. It disturbs me that they think 'someone else will do it', because if they ALL think that, NO ONE does anything! :banghead:

06-26-2003, 12:39 AM	#7
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	It seems to be a common human behavior. The other two studies you should read about are Stanley Milgram's experiements on obedience to authority (chilling), and the Stanford Prison Experiment. After taking SocPsych, it destroyed any illusions I had about humans being basically good. Humans often seem to be good despite themselves. Another good study to look up is Solomon Asch's Social Pressure and Perception. And difusion of responsiblity is one of those facts of life if you're a first responder. We were all taught to target specific people rather than yelling, "Will somebody call for help?" You make eye contact, you point at them, and you say, "You! Go call 911 right now!" Otherwise, it just doesn't happen.

06-26-2003, 06:38 AM	#9
AquaVita Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Dallas Posts: 4,351	I'm not even sure if I have words to express my digust. Not one of these people could even be bothered to call the police immediatley? I would have called the cops and THEN gone downstairs to beat the living shit out of this guy. I've done it before when someone was assualting a fellow human being...christ, I still cannot believe this.

06-26-2003, 07:10 AM	#10
southernhybrid Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: heavenly Georgia Posts: 3,862	I was 15 years old and living just outside of New York City when that event happened. For weeks, it was discussed in the media, and people were very upset. Everyone said they would have called for help had they been there. They weren't there so one can only wonder if that would have been the case. I think when one lives in a very large metro area, it's easy to become apathetic to those around you. It's also easy to think that someone else already called the police, I guess. I'm not justifying it or trying to explain it but it does seem to be very common behavior. Think about all the times there's been somone trying to commit suicide by jumping off of a bridge and bystanders watch and shout, "Jump!" That's pretty sad too, isn't it?

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